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Brief Response to Richard's Religion Blog

krwordgazer

Avoid this thread if you don't like to talk about religion, ok? :)

After struggling over it for a number of days, I find I have to give some response to what was basically an anti-religious Blog by Richard Pini on March 25.

The word "fear" has a special meaning with the context of the Christian faith, having nothing at all to do with being afraid, but rather carrying the meanings of awe, respect, and reverence. In fact, some translations of the passage Mr. Pini refers to, "the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom" use the word "reverence" instead of "fear."

I believe I speak for most, if not all, Christians when I say I have never felt "watched" by a "judging" diety, but instead, I am watched over by a loving one.

That's all. :)

scarlettdoll

i agree with you Kwordgzer.
I think it's a definate shame how mis-interpreted so many things of the Christian faith are (and how many things are warped for selfish reasons but that's another story). Given what most people are 'taught' i can understand why so many people hate the idea of Christianity. The idea of an all-loving, all-forgiving God seems harder for some people to accept than the idea of a vengeful watching creator. But, nothing you can do I guess other than try to love those you meet and live so that it's easier for them to understand.

LordDarkhan

I just read the blog, and i have to say i do have to agree with you Kword and Scarlett. It is so easy to misunderstand a religion or its words if u do not practice them and believe them everyday. I think it all needs to be taken in context. I definately do not live in fear of God.. and i do not think thats how he wants it, or how that passage is to be taken.

stardreamer

I don't think we should fear God either.. well not in the way Richard use there..
although I do know that there are christians who do fear God that way... Iam not gonna say if there right or wrong... I just know they are there.. I even do know some of them..
So i can understand where that kinda comes from.. beside of the miss-understanding of this religion.. :roll:

VollsSpirit

[quote:106cdbfc02]I find I have to give some response to what was basically an anti-religious Blog by Richard Pini on March 25. [/quote:106cdbfc02]

I don't think Richard's blog was basically an anti-religious blog.
My personal opinion is that he was just critisizing some persons that want other people to believe you should fear your creator and while they are making them to believe this crap they can influence those people more.

If you can make people believe you should fear the creator and that they should follow some rules so that they won't get punished by it you can easily influence them,driven by self-interest.
That is what he meant i think...i'm not sure of course but i do believe it wasn't,basically,an anti-religious blog.

LordDarkhan

That is a very good way to put it Kindred.

I think its very easy for people to misinterpret and take things the wrong way, especially if they havent even read the bible. I would recommend to anyone, reading the bible to get a better understanding of it, before criticizing or judging aspects of its religion. That way u can at least interpret it for yourself and have your own understanding of it.

scarlettdoll

That is a very good explanation Kin.

stardreamer

Quote:
Kindredsoul

Here I go again..... :roll:


:roll: Grin nice way of speaking.. and If you go again.. this way.. I don't mind that you do that a lot :roll:
Good way of explaining.. I think I keep this one in mind.. its an good example.. thanx..

manicmarauder

You know, i was going to say something, but after Kindred's post there isn't much better way to say it, so ... um ... guess that makes this a "Me Too!" post ;)

Exelent way of putting it Kindred 8)

MrsGrizzley

Okies, my own experience with religion is twisted at best.

I spent much of my life in a state of utter brainwash. I'm not entirely certain if it was the church I was raised it, or if it was the family I grew up in, or a combination of the two, but I was not expected to truly make decisions. I was expected to behave in the expected patterns and modes and to take the expected life steps at the expected time yadda yadda yadda and so on. Is it any wonder why I empathize with Blue Mountain?

I am also prone to panic attacks. I had my first one at about the age of 12.

I'm learning more about the panic, and it's less unreasoning fear as a gift gets out of my control and I'm washed away by it. For alot of years my only means of coping was to concentrate completely on something utterly shallow. Games, stories, anything I could lose myself in so I could pull my mind out of the maelstrom that was Eternity opening between my feet.

I even suspect why I have them. I'm empathic and imaginative and the two working together is why I'm so great with characterization for my writing. But I can imagine *anything* and when I do, I hit the wall that is the limit of human understanding and whammo! Panic attack.

In any event, my gift started to develop at about 12 and I had my first panic attack. That night I made my first real choice when I chose not to give my loyalty first to the church and second to Christ.

I chose Christ alone. Wherever He and God are, that's where I want to be. But I was brainwashed and I though that He was only in that church. He's not.

When I met my husband I was firmly in the grip of what I though I was supposed to be doing. I honestly thought that I wasn't supposed to be "happy" in this life so that I could have "joy" in the next, and I had so rationalized things as to give separate definitions to each word.

There's only one way to break conditioning. It didn't make my husband any friends among my family members who thought that he was abusive and taking advantage of how they had trained me to be obedient.

In any event, I have had to build up my own opinions of religion now that I can finally hold them.

God is fair to the point of cruelty. He is absolutely just. He's not "judging" our behavior. Well, He is, and He isn't. Everyone falls short of perfection. There was only one perfect human, and that was Jesus, and only because he was divinely born. Every last one of us, though, is in need of redemption because we all deserve punishment.

Jesus, though, paid that price. He carried that burden that we could not. Our misdeeds and omissions are taken care of. All He asks is that we accept Him.

And that's the sum total of Christianity. Acceptance that our price was paid. A choice that only we can make.

God no longer judges us on our behavior, our actions or lack thereof. We all fall short of the standard, we all fail that test, but the price is paid. The only thing that matters anymore is how we each decide to treat Christ.

Behavior is in some ways determined by outside factors. You can be forced into behaviors that are contrary what is "right" by those around you. The Christian will make an effort to live rightly, but sometimes you have to kick back. Christ said "turn the other cheek", He didn't say "bend over and spread 'em".

Eternity balances on how you make one choice. That which is not of God wants you to make the choice in any way except the way that will place you on His side. All God asks is your allegiance and your acceptance of His son. Everything else is window dressing that should come from gratitude for the sheer wonder of the gift of forgiveness.

Very few things in this world make me as angry as someone who claims to be Christian and does the work of evil by chasing people away from Christianity. Those street-corner "preachers" who scream at people and shout to hear the sound of their own voice and the lauds of their brainwashed, cult followers disgust me.

Strong opinions are one thing. I have strong opinions and I will use strong words when they are called for. But I will *never* tolerate the use of strong words without even the intent to convince anyone. To convince someone takes a level of respect and an awful lot of love for one's fellow man. There's not much of love in the attitudes of alot of Christians.

Of course, the other path is as bad if not worse. I have severe problems with those pacifist Christians who believe that everyone can just get along if we all simply sit down and talk our differences through. Christ was not a pacifist. He took up a flail and flogged men out of the temple. He didn't just wave it at them. He didn't motion to it. He picked the danged thing up and hit them with it while overturning tables with violence. There is a time for talking and a time for action and wise is he who knows the difference and is capable of both.

Of course, I also believe that this whole "lets all just get along" movement in Christianity is ultimately what's going to set up the diabolical one world religion. But I'm still entitled to my opinions.

And that's my dollar and a half or so.

Mrs. Grizzley (who loves discussing religion and philosophy)

Jeppe

I just can't forgive God for what he did to Job!! Evil Grin :x

MrsGrizzley

Why not?

God didn't do those things to him. The Devil did. Now, he had to ask permission first, but still. And then, when Job's loyalty was proven, God gave him more than he had at the start in recompense.

Besides, God never said being on His side would be easy. He only said it would be worth it.

Mrs. Grizzley

Jeppe

Yes, but him being God and almighty and all that, i would say he's still the one who did it! After all, he could have said no and spared Job for what he had to go through! No one goes out of that kind of troubles without scars on the soul...

Jeppe

WAIT a minute! What's that about Job getting more than he had before?

MrsGrizzley

There's another side to the idea that what doesn't kill us makes us stronger.

We cannot get stronger without surviving.

A parent can step in and prevent their child from ever feeling adversity. They can prevent every stumble, every hurt feeling. But if they did, the child would never walk, never run, never accomplish anything except kneel on the ground and mouth the platitudes of slavery.

Evil wants you to think that Good must prevent all sorrow, so that you will blame Good for all the sorrow because it didn't step into prevent these "learning experiences" and thus will not choose to side with God and with Good.

The fact of the matter is that God doesn't want slaves. He doesn't want us to sit back and wait for Him to take care of every little issue and prevent every little sorrow. He wants us to do our best to do as much as we can and to struggle with all the sorrows that free will gives us. We will be much stronger for it and we will be better servants for chosing freely our allegiance.

Maybe a few scars are good for us. Who would One-Eye have been if he'd had both his eyes and no interesting story to tell?

Mrs. Grizzley

krwordgazer

Mrs. Grizzley, about this pacifist-Christian thing-- you are in Texas, where the majority of people think along the same lines you do. Here in Oregon, the most unchurched state in the US, we have had to learn to get along. Christians are in the minority here, and we know it, so we know how to speak gently, and that small denominational differences aren't worth the trouble of fighting over, when we need to all be pulling together.

I'm not saying we water down our beliefs or compromise our convictions. We just learn to focus on what we have in common rather than on what we don't.

Jeppe, you might enjoy Philip Yancey's "The Bible Jesus Read." It contains the best explanation of Job I've ever read. What he says is more or less that God and the forces of evil had a confrontation over whether humans were worth anything, and Job was the test case. I know it was hard on Job, but God let Job yell at Him about it for the whole book, and didn't blame him. The ones he did blame were Job's self-righteous friends who said it was all Job's own fault. Then God restored to Job everything He had taken away.

As far as the scars, of course they're there. But since Jesus himself thought scars were of such value that he kept his even after he was raised from the dead, I have to agree with Mrs. Grizzley that scars, if we let God take care of them, will only make us stronger. And also, in some mysterious way, they actually have eternal value beyond our own lives.

I hope this helps. :)

And Kindred-- I'm sorry you came from a sect where they taught you to be afraid of God :( , but the phrase "the fear of God" is simply not interpreted that way by any respected theologian or preacher I've ever heard of. Not even in the wierd, super-legalistic semi-cult I was in for a number of years! They may have taught things about God that made you fear, but did they, in so many words, tell you that that passage meant to be afraid of him? The sect I was in still said it meant "reverence." :)

I agree with Darkhan that people should not just jump to conclusions about religion or anything else. They should inquire as to the meaning of a thing before judging it.

Jeppe

Ehrm, sorry about that one... My "religion"-teacher read the story of Job for us... Never mentioned anything about getting anything back... :? (pretty confusing)

MrsGrizzley

Since Jeppe asked,

The final sections of Job talk about after all the hullaballoo and everything calms down again, God causes Job to have more children, a greater number than he had to begin with, and He gives him greater wealth than that which he lost, more flocks, more everything.

Basically the image you're supposed to be left with is that if you are true during tribulation then you will be rewarded when the testing is over and you have been proven.

As for Oregon vs. Texas, you're probably right. I just feel it necessary to remind people that Christians aren't supposed to be pacifists. Pacifism has nothing to do with Christianity. Christianity is a choice and a freedom that once someone has it, they want to share it with the whole world. That sharing must sometimes be done in a delicate manner and in a soft voice, but that doesn't make it any less Real.

I believe it may have been Johnny Cash who said that God was more Real than his Momma.

In any event, I do alot of thinking about the Reality of things (that's probably what prompted the onset of those panic attacks) and given that I know beyond any shadow of doubt that there are more things going on in this world than are even hinted at in any "mainstream" philosophy, I approach religion in a historical manner.

Of course, I don't remove the supernatural from my history. The house in Amityville is strange to say the least and there are some odd goings on in various places.

Geez, now I'm rambling again. I do that alot.

Shade, sweet water, and loads of respect for all!

Mrs. Grizzley

krwordgazer

I'm not sure "pacifism" is the word you mean, is it, Mrs. G?

I know some Christians consider themselves called by God not to participate in war. That is a choice they make that I certainly would not interfere in.

But as to whether the "meekness" Christians are called to means we have to lie down and let people walk all over us, I agree with you that that is not the case. Especially when it's a question of defending what we believe. :)

stardreamer

Quote:
MrsGrizzley

Since Jeppe asked,

The final sections of Job talk about after all the hullaballoo and everything calms down again, God causes Job to have more children, a greater number than he had to begin with, and He gives him greater wealth than that which he lost, more flocks, more everything.

Basically the image you're supposed to be left with is that if you are true during tribulation then you will be rewarded when the testing is over and you have been proven.


just wondering here.. but do you saying that right here stands that after a test you will get better... :roll:
I don't think that is what this story is about.. and I don't think the last part shows that..
Yeah.. God gave Job a new life back... true.. but Job didn't realy needed that by then.. didn't even asked for that by then..
after Gods talking to job.. at the end.. Job concludes that he finaly have got to know God after all.. .. and after that he doesn't realy need more in his life..
he even ask forgivenes for his friends instead of thinkin bout himselve..
I think that is more what this story bout.. bout Job never let God realy down.. always goes to God.. even with his rambling.. and at the end even found out that although he thought he knows God.. he didn't realy knows Him after all..
I think that is what this story is more going bout than going bout that you will be reward after proven..
but ow well.. that was just my opinion.. :roll:
and could be that you ment that to.. (bad english here you know :roll:)
anyway.. just had to say that... :roll:
btw.. Job is a verry intresting book.. I think.. :roll:

Rainedancer

Since people are talking about religon I was wondering if anyones read The Davici Code its a book I really enjoyed. :)
I'm not Christion but I do aggre with what Kin, Wordgazer and MrsG have said, I don't think you should fear your god(s), respect but not fear.

PCoquelin

I don't believe in any deity, but the history of the Christian religion and of the cult throughout ages and places has always interested me, because of what human behaviours it reveals all along.
I REALLY wonder more and more WHY on earth or above do humans have need of a "superior being" watching them, controlling them, to be feared, to guide them, and so on....
History (and BAAAD moments in it) tells us what a "guide" (Führer, auf Deutsch) may lead us to do.
Why not make human the central element, like some Christian Fathers try'n remind us that it was the Prophet's talk in itself ??
Why would we need priests and churches to remind us there are moral rules to follow ?
Well, I'll stop here, but I really understand Richard's "anti-religious" blog.

krwordgazer

Stardreamer, I am filled with admiration for your sensitive analysis of Job. I think you are absolutely right. :D

PC, if I understand what you're saying, I think that history bears out (ala Hitler) the opposite of what you indicate: what can happen if we make humanity (such as in a "Master Race") the thing worshiped.

Speaking intellectually, now-- without a reference point outside ourselves (ie, a diety), how do we define morality anyway? If it's just what the majority of people in a society believe is right, then the Nazis were right because they were in the majority. No God means no absolutes, means no real morality.

Apparently, new scientific studies have shown that the human brain is "hard-wired" for worship. I personally tend to think that was by design. Why would we evolve to need something that doesn't exist?

Just thoughts to consider. :)

chocolate!

[quote:2cfb583bc8]Speaking intellectually, now-- without a reference point outside ourselves (ie, a diety), how do we define morality anyway? If it's just what the majority of people in a society believe is right, then the Nazis were right because they were in the majority. No God means no absolutes, means no real morality.[/quote:2cfb583bc8]
Well, I've thought a lot bout that lately. Cause I always wanted to be good, I keep asking myself what's right and what's wrong.
Basically you have a conscience and that tells you a lot what to do and what not...
But with some question it's too hard to really say bad or good to it.
Maybe you can brake them down into simple things, but I dunno how to explain...sometimes I have diffulty to see if it's wrong or right...
Is it wrong to divorce?? But if you really don't love him anymore??
Is it wrong to have sex before marriage??
Or to do it with every guy you know for a week (not that I do, and certainly don't aprove)

VollsSpirit

My opinion is that there is no such thing as "wrong" and "right",nor there is something like "good" and "bad".(or "good" and "evil" as you wish)
These things are abstracta that only can be defined on an individual level when the individu uses that kind of word in a certain context.

But i have to ask krwordgazer something:What do you mean when you say the nazi's had a majority?You mean that they had one in Germany or...?
We shouldn't forget that the NSDAP(Hitler's party) NEVER had a majority in Germany!They never had 50%!(1932:nsdap 37,4 %/1933:33,4%/1933(2):43,9%)
And those last elections were corrupted.Hitler forbade the communist party and he threatened the most important persons in oppositions before he decided to have new elections(->1933(2)).
Afther those elections Germany was pulled in to a nazi-regime.

I don't want to seem irritated because that's not true but we shouldn't "rape" history..


*shade and sweet water*


P.S.:I'm (still) a human too and i don't feel the need to worship anything.
Not something airy above us,not human-kind,not the animals,whatever you name.There is a third way,krwordgazer,you don't have to choose between worshipping ourselves or worshipping Him.You also can just worship nothing and keep being critical to all what passes in your mind.

krwordgazer

I am very sorry to have offended you, Voll's Spirit. I simply didn't know that Hitler's party was not elected by the majority. I thought that the people were duped by the economic security he held out, to jump on his bandwagon. I apologize.

I was simply making a point (with Nazi Germany as perhaps not the best example), that we cannot always rely on majority opinion as our reference point for what is right and wrong. No "rape" of history was intended.

But Voll's Spirit, if there is no "right" or "wrong" apart from what an individual says it is, then what is the basis for not hurting others in any way I wanted, whenever I stood to gain from it? Surprised

VollsSpirit

I wasn't offended...so don't apologize! :)
Maybe if i were German i would have been but well,it turned out that i was born in Belgium. Grin

stardreamer

Quote:
krwordgazer

Stardreamer, I am filled with admiration for your sensitive analysis of Job. I think you are absolutely right. :D


geej.. thanx :) :oops: :roll: :D


@ Choco..
those are some nice questions to ask..
have thought bout it a lot to.. still do every now and then..
although I think you can bring them back to basic with just thinkin this way..
love others like you love yourselve.. :roll:

so.. would you or the other regret one of those things.. then don't
like divorce.. that already start with marriage.. that is something you have to think bout verry well.. before starting.. so you won't come to a point of divorce.. and well if you come there after all.. then you realy have to think verry well what is the best to do..
and that is kinda the same for the other questions..
you have to stand both behind it.. and if not.. don't do it..
and beside of that.. think well about if this is the right person you want to have it with.. :roll:
something like that..
but well Iam still thinkin bout those kind of subject.. and must say that every now and then ppl bring in new well thought things that can change my mind a little.. so.. :roll:
just a thought from this moment ;) :roll:

stardreamer

Quote:
Kindredsoul

and very good thoughts too, Bart!! Wink


thanx Kin :roll: :)
*goes play a little more guitar*

chocolate!

[quote:c08251dcc7]love others like you love yourselve.. [/quote:c08251dcc7]

yeah, I knew there was something, YAY...

wat gij niet wil dat u geschiedt doe dat dan ook een ander niet?

stardreamer

Quote:
chocolate!

[quote:7c32cfe005]love others like you love yourselve..



yeah, I knew there was something, YAY...

wat gij niet wil dat u geschiedt doe dat dan ook een ander niet?[/quote:7c32cfe005]
yup..
of Jesus samenvatting van de wet.. (wich I was mention to)

chocolate!

is dat hetzelfde, daar heb ik nog nooit van g ehoord?

stardreamer

euh.. denk denk denk.
staat in een van de evangelien..
komt kort gezegd op volgende neer..
Heb je naaste lief als jezelf en heb God lief met geheel je hard, ziel en verstand..
zoiets.. :roll:
als je naar de 10 geboden kijkt.. kun je die idd hierin samenvatten.. :roll:

(sorry for the dutch talking here.. :roll:.. was a little easier.. :roll:)

chocolate!

oh yeah, know that one!! :)
I thought it was from deuteronomium since I wrote it down once..
and I have a mezuzah...

tnx! Wink

stardreamer

your welcome :)
mezuzah?? what is that :roll:

chocolate!

it's a little box from the jewish religion, but also christians od have it sometimes.
You place it on your doorpost and the jews do kiss it evcerytie they walk in or out.
It's filled with a little paperroll that I've written myself without any spellingmistakes cause then It loses it's integraty...

It with words from deuternomium and I thought it was the ten commandments as well...

stardreamer

ow.. Cool :)
you should show me.. :) never saw one :roll:

chocolate!

Hang een mezuzah op je deurposten en poorten van je huis (Deut. 6:9) (CCP 12). Mezuzah betekent letterlijk deurpost. In de mezuzah zit een rolletje perkament in met de Bijbelteksten (uit de Torah) Deut. 6: 4- 9 en 11: 13- 20.



ghehe, I will... Wink

nomad-human

I have edited this post for strong language that I shouldn't have used. However I stand by what I said, but realize now that this wasn't the place for it.

krwordgazer

Moderator's Note: For the information of those coming late to this thread: Nomad-Human was very upset by Mrs. Grizzley's recent post, which seemed to her to be advocating violence toward and suppression of people Mrs. G. disagrees with. There was also some question as to whether the moderators should have interfered with what seemed to be an advocation of violence against others. Nomad-Human has chosen to delete her post.

I believe that the rest of the discussion should remain here, though, so that Mrs. G. can be aware of the impact of her words on someone whose close relatives suffered through the Holocaust.

My response (not as a moderator, but just as a member of this forum) to Nomad was to bring forward this paragraph from Mrs. Grizzley's post:

Quote:
MrsGrizzley



Very few things in this world make me as angry as someone who claims to be Christian and does the work of evil by chasing people away from Christianity. Those street-corner "preachers" who scream at people and shout to hear the sound of their own voice and the lauds of their brainwashed, cult followers disgust me.

Strong opinions are one thing. I have strong opinions and I will use strong words when they are called for. But I will *never* tolerate the use of strong words without even the intent to convince anyone. To convince someone takes a level of respect and an awful lot of love for one's fellow man. There's not much of love in the attitudes of alot of Christians.



If Mrs. G. is against screaming at people, if she believes in respect and love for one's fellow man, do you really think she believes we should kill or torture people who disagree with us, Nomad?

Words can't express how sorry I feel for what happened to your grandmother. But Hitler was not a Christian-- he believed in the old Teutonic gods and in the perpetration of a "master race." There is no indication from Mrs. Grizzley's post that she believes in a master race or in anything Hitler stood for.

What I read from Mrs. G's post is that she doesn't believe Christians should just meekly stand by when someone attacks our faith. There is a time to stand up-- a time even to shout-- for what we believe in. As you just did, Nomad my friend. :)

There is within Christianity a movement to simply drop everything but the moral teachings of Jesus-- to relax our stance about his divinity, his miracles, etc., in order to "get along" with everyone and to create a sort of watered-down "unity" within a worldwide church. That is what Mrs. G. is protesting against. Not against "agreeing to disagree," but against just backing down and agreeing with everyone.

I think Mrs. G. should have more carefully considered her audience before she started talking about "violence," because of the real possibility that she was not communicating effectively with people who have a completely different worldview from her own.

But that's all I can fault her for.

VollsSpirit

Nomad-human,

don't think you were the only one who-this is an euphemism-raised an eyebrow when reading Mrs. Grizzley's post.
I was also thinking to post a reply but couldn't find the right words.
Especially the legitimation of religious violence made my neckhair raise..
(i don't know if this goes in english but well,i hope you understand)
But I have to admit something...I don't believe that the "endlosung"(the massive genocide,organized by the nazi's, that happened in Germany and in which many jews died)was the result of a "war" between jews and christians...
It's horrible what happened and i really do feel very sorry for your relatives but i don't think the "endlosung" was the result of the "blood-thirstyness" of the (german) christians.

There are so many reasons why they suddenly began to focus on jews as the ultimate scape goats that we just can't narrow it to the difference between two religous groups(in this case:christians and jews).


*shade and sweet water*

VollsSpirit

[quote:f12c7d1b10]If Mrs. G. is against screaming at people, if she believes in respect and love for one's fellow man, do you really think she believes we should kill or torture people who disagree with us, Nomad? [/quote:f12c7d1b10]

I think,krowdgazer,you're misinterpreting here.
Mrs. Grizzley tells us she would use strong words(or that she would scream at people) when she intends to convince anyone.
She despises the people that use strong words/scream without having the intention to convince a person.
Also,i can't derive from Mrs. G's post what you derived from it,krwordgazer.

Maybe it is like that but,reading her post,i can't conclude she believes in respect and love for one's fellow man.
All she said is that those two things are necessary conditions in a situation when somebody wants to convince an other person.
More i can't derive..

*shade and sweet water*

nomad-human

Language is everything in our world, our words our, our body posture, everything that we do becomes language. Grizzly has the right to believe anything she wishes. Especially if she lives in the U.S. however when inflammatory use of violent language is used, it almost always gets a violent response.

My issues with her post had nothing to do with her faith, but the acceptance of violence to others differnt from herself contained within. To believe in the Sword, and then use faith to back it up is a slippery slope, the end result gets you the Shoah (what Jews call the Holocaust as holocaust means accepted sacrifice to G-d while shoah means genocide) or the Burning Times. Christains themselves have been the victims of the Sword mentality, when they were considered a small sub-set of Judaism, that was a dangerous time to be a Christain.

I am not a pacifist, but I believe that violence in the name of G-d, is a horrid thing. One that humanity on a whole has been guilty of too many times to sweep it under the rug. Since I do believe in a loving G-d (albeit one who is fair, ie: you do wrong to others you will pay in the end.) I cannot believe that he condones the Sword mentality when it cames to our actions in the name of faith. Whatever faith that happens to be.

If Grizzly did in fact NOT mean what her post seemed to instill in me to my very bones, than she should have used more care in her wording. Not everyone here is a Christain, some of us have had violence visited upon us for that fact (I have been the victim of a hate crime myself for my religon, it was violent and painful and will stay with me forever) when we see wording like that it has the hope of only ever doing one thing to us, it will make us angry.

So to Grizzly I say this: May your faith make you a better person and may it bring you peace, but remember...some of us get badly frightened when people start using violence and religon in the same sentence.

And I will take my own Board Step-Mom advice and never visit this thread again.

krwordgazer

But Voll's Spirit, Mrs. G. said, "to convince someone takes a level of respect and an awful lot of love". She never said anything about advocating screaming to convince someone.

More than that, I cannot say. I wish now that I had PM'd her, as I originally thought of doing, to ask her to make her message clearer and more gentle.

Mrs. G. will have to answer your questions for herself when she returns next week.

VollsSpirit

[quote:c3870d6de5] To believe in the Sword, and then use faith to back it up is a slippery slope[/quote:c3870d6de5]

I couldn't agree more,Nomad-human!
And i understand now what you really meant with your initial post.
And i merely agree with what you have remarked..
I'm sorry to hear that you've been threatened in a a disgusting way because of your faith.
I also don't like to see religion and violence been put in one sentence..


*shade and sweet water*


P.S.:why do you intend to stay away from this post?

VollsSpirit

Krwordgazer,

She wrote that she would use strong words to convince someone..
Ok,it isn't the same as yelling at somebody but it comes close,doesn't it?

krwordgazer

I don't know, Voll's Spirit. I can tell how you are defining "strong words," but I'm not sure how Mrs. G. does. It seems to me Nomad just used "strong words" because she felt it necessary, and I certainly feel she had a right to do so. :)

So under your definition of "strong words"-- no. Under mine -- yes, under certain circumstances. :)

VollsSpirit

Ok,

then i agree with you,krwordgazer.It was just a matter of language(and definitions)..
(I'm not a native speaker of course)
I never wanted to make you believe that i think that it's "bad" to speak up or to defend your opinion (in a verbal way) but i do believe that violence never should be allowed/tolerated.

Jeppe

My big sister told me something interesting this easter holiday...

Apparently, some people who works with languages had split up the name Barabas and it should, according to them, translate into "The son of god" (Or something along those lines...)

KingJohnny

I just wanted to point out that most Christians have feared God for about 1,950 years. It's really only been the last 50 years or so that people could finally have a sense of humour, joke about God, even in the church. This is in response to Wordgazer's initial post. The idea that Christians are not afraid of God is relatively new.

Also, I don't think anyone answered Word's question as to why we should be moral and not cause harm if we stand to gain from it. As an atheist, I can tell you that I'm a good person because I want to be good. It is illogical to cause harm. I don't need to be scared into being good. I'm good for goodness' sake. I'm good because I believe it's right. Most atheists don't believe in deities because we believe science gives us all the answers we need. We believe science has shown us so far that the universe works perfectly fine on its own without any kind of divine intervention. We don't hate any gods. We just don't believe in them for the same exact reasons you don't believe in any gods other than your own. Being good or evil has nothing to do with it. I have never met an atheist that I would consider evil. Most I have met have interests in science and history and base their belief (or non-belief, however you take it) on science and the history of man and religion. One doesn't need religion, or a belief in a god to have morals. Knowing what pain, suffering and harm is is enough reason to have morals.

Since man first invented god (in my opinion), more harm has been done in the name of religion than any non-religious belief.

Arthis

Yesterday while you were having that discussion I was at a concert with that incredible singer and marvellous woman Noa (Achinoam Nini). She sang in English, in Yiddish, in French, in Italian. She sang songs about friendship, about love, about peace. She sang her hope that people of all races, colors, religions could share the world in harmony. Noa, the Jewish singer ended her concert singing Ave Maria, and I have tears in my eyes just thinking of the beauty of that moment.
All I believe in was in that concert.

KingJohnny

Well, John Lennon said it best: All you need is love. All we are saying is give peace a chance.

He also said:

Imagine there's no heaven, it's easy if you try. No hell below us, above us only sky.

You know what's ironic about that song Imagine? It's sang (sung?) at churches. I'm not sure how religious people interpret those lyrics. I interpret it literally. To a believer, it's a moot point. How can a believer imagine there is no heaven or hell? It's not easy for them because their automatic answer is that without heaven or hell, we wouldn't exist so there's no point in imagining no heaven. In their mind, it can't be done. That's like asking a scientist to imagine if there was no big bang.

krwordgazer

King Johnny, I don't know where you got the idea that Christians have always been afraid of God till the last 50 years or so. Christians have always held God in awe, always known he is someone to respect and not to treat lightly or offend, but if you read the writings of great Christian thinkers and writers through the ages, it simply is not true that Christians are afraid of God! Though there are certain legalistic sects that have gone that far, being afraid of God is not part of regular Christian doctrine or practice. He is not portrayed as an arbitrary tyrant, but as a loving parent. St. Augustine, Erasmus, John Donne, Gerard Manley Hopkins, George MacDonald, C.S. Lewis-- all show a relationship with God comprised of worship, love and awe, not cowering or abject fear.

I think that as an atheist, perhaps you are not in the best position to interpret how Christians feel about God. I do not say this in disrespect or to insult you. But I feel it is true. Just as I would not feel myself able to expound on the attitudes of animal rights advocates towards animals, as you do (having inside knowledge on that subject).

As far as imagining no heaven and no hell-- well, I have done that. To me life without an afterlife is an exercise in futility-- as Shakespeare put it, "full of sound and fury, signifying nothing." I'm not asking you to agree with me. But I have indeed thought about the larger questions of life. I do not follow my religion blindly-- my parents were not Christians. It's something I chose for myself after careful consideration and thought. :)

krwordgazer

Sorry for the double post-- but I still had not replied to King Johnny's post on morality.


My question about morality was intended as an intellectual one, not to be construed in any way as saying atheists are evil! :oops: You say you are good because you "believe it's right." I admire that. But my question is, what makes it right? How are right and wrong defined with nothing to define them by? "Do no harm"? What makes doing harm wrong? Why cannot right and wrong be arbitrarily changed according to any human whim? Lord Voll's position, that there is no real right and wrong, seems more logically consistent with atheist thought.

In any case, I started this thread in order to briefly (I thought! Grin ) counter Richard Pini's misconception that Christianity is about going around looking over your shoulder in constant fear of being judged by a supernatural tyrant. I can only defend what Christianity is, not how some individual Christians or Christian groups have acted from time to time.

I'm feeling about ready to wrap up this discussion, if anyone else is. :)

KingJohnny

Sorry I haven't responded in a few days. I was at Disney World with no internet access.

Wordgazer, at no point did I feel you were attacking atheists, regarding my answer as to why we have morals. I was only giving the atheistic view.

Also, about Christians, they have not been unchanged since Christianity was formed. I'll admit I don't know everything about Christian history, but one thing I do know, from history, is that most Christians were literally god-fearing up until recent times. I don't have to be a Christian to know this. Being atheist doesn't automatically make me ignorant of anything.

I guess I don't have much else to add but I'm sticking by what I've said.

scarlettdoll

gonna veer off topic but will then withdraw:
Welcome back KingJohnny!

Am leaving now.

KingJohnny

Thanks, I had lots of fun. I went to DW when I was 2, back in 76. I'm 31 now. I have very vague memories, but I do remember certain things like the castle and the parade/fireworks and walking down Main Street.

Anyway, I am definitely not trying to argue with anyone, but I don't think topics need to be closed or shyed away from. Any topic should be open to discussion. People will disagree. As long as the topic doesn't become heated. Politics, religion, ethics...any topic should be open.

lostshard

wasn't this thread locked?

Arthis

No it wasn't, it was (just) wrapped in paper and tape by Kindredsoull :D

lostshard

i am confused... and now it is un-locked again??

LordDarkhan

lol It was never locked....a lot of posters just felt it was discussed into the ground so they "voluntarily walked away" so to speak.

lostshard

eum i can remember that it (the thread itself) had a lock thingy infront of it

LordDarkhan

well if it did, then im the one going crazy

Arthis

I don't remember seeing that lock logo!

Question to the other preservers: did one of you lock and then unlock this thread? (Or someone locked and someone else unlocked...)

krwordgazer

This thread was never locked. The one Lostshard is thinking of is KingJohnny's thread responding to Richard Pini's anti-SUV Blog, which I locked after all the people involved in the discussion agreed.

No one in this topic officially agreed to end the discussion, except that no one posted after our dear Kindred used her magic wrapping tape. But I still did not lock it because I thought Mrs. Grizzley might want to respond to the messages directed to her, and she has been gone for a week or so.

But I certainly don't want to argue any more with King Johnny or anyone else about matters that I'll never be able to convince him about, and he'll never be able to convince me. Wink

I'm glad you had a good time at Disney World, King J. Wish I could go! :D

lostshard

hmmm....i am going nuts for sure 8)

LordDarkhan

HA....Shardy i knew u were the crazy and not me... :D

LivietheLurker

Remember, LordDarkhan, the two are not mutually exclusive... Wink

LordDarkhan

HMPH :twisted:

krwordgazer

Don't worry-- "nuts" is not a bad state of mind. I go there myself on a regular basis. Wink

LivietheLurker

Personally, I prefer "crackers".

scarlettdoll

good eco-friendly Kin!
(i do too, when it's sparkly!) Grin

stardreamer

Quote:
lostshard

hmmm....i am going nuts for sure 8)


nope.. LOL you already where :P :roll: Grin ROFL

Magela_earth

I love this forum and it's off topic tendancies, but i wanted to comment on the topic of this thread. Bear in mind, I'm trying to post quickly so I didn't have time to read all of the backlogged posts.

I have to agree with Richard here. I, personally, have basic pagan beliefs: mulitple dieties, reincarnation, all that jazz. PART of the reason I believe these things is because I don't see how any God could condemn his children/creations if they make bad choices when he could instead teach them all the sides of all there is to know. Choice is still intact, but knowledge is then amplified. This is why I agree with the "fear" Richard is discussing, I don't fear my ending, there is no reason to. I still believe that what goes around comes around and misfortune falls on those who bring it upon themselves, sometimes from the hand of God, but I don't think this is the fear that Richard was referring to, and this is the difference between reverence/awe and fear, it's very different than ETERNAL damnation.

Sorry if this was basically already said.

Disclaimer: this is in NO way speaking out against Christians, sorry if it feels that way. I respect Christians, this is just my view/belief in regards to what Richard discussed in his Blog.

scarlettdoll

(gonna veer off topic yet again but very briefly!)

Welcome back Magela!! Good to see you again!! :D

(returning the thread back to topic)

scarlettdoll

Grin you use wrapping paper on nuts? (sorry couldn't help it)

edit-before Tom or Mon can get hold of this, Surprised I meant nothing perverse by the above!!! I had an image of a can of peanuts with sparkly paper!! Grin

LordDarkhan

I know some good things to use on nuts :D

scarlettdoll

Grin actually, when i read "chocolate fudge" my 1st thought was "Yeah! Chocolate covered almonds are the best!" Grin

CrossBlade

OOOHHHHHHHHH...BAD TIM...BAD TIM!!!

Im just wrong...LOL

krwordgazer

*Slaps Cross Blade, but not hard. Grin **

Dark chocolate covered hazelnuts. The very best! :P

CrossBlade

thank you, may I have another?......LOL

sorry, I couldnt resist. I sometimes have trouble draging my mind out of the gutter. Ill turn on my innocent look again. "click" there, now noone will ever think I said that...MAHahaha

Magela_earth

*looks around confused*
I could have sworn someone was being naughty, can't have been crossblade *shrugs* oh well.

scarlettdoll

Grin I love you guys!

Leanan

Just for the record, I'm a Christian too. Very strayed lamb at the moment... very confused... a lost little soul going 'baa' in the night... :D

Seriously, It is in me to hunger for both darkness and light, but ultimately light always wins. It shines brightest when surrounded by night... one of the mental images ElfQuest has given me is a white star, a sending star, in an indigo-black sky... a better description of my faith and spirit than any red flame... more so, when you know that stars are suns...

I think I'm a mystic. But what a mystic is, that is one of the mysteries.

krwordgazer

**Obligatory slap to Kindred** Wink

Maybe we ought to just lock this thread, too. People already thought we had. . .

It's gone way off topic, anyway, and I at least was done discussing the topic we started. :)

Thoughts?

Magela_earth

religion is one of my favorite things to discuss...but not with people I like as much as all of you becuase I tend to sound derogitory, (same with politics) and we can spam in more appropriate threads and not feel bad about it, it's highly unlikely that we'll discuss the blog again even if someone has any new thoughts on it.

sadly...i vote close

scarlettdoll

or just let it filter down the chain and then if newbies see it and want to add their thoughts, they can. :)
(actually, i think only in "The Great Egg" subtopic are there threads that aren't off topic. We tend to wander with every subject. But it's a good thing! We enjoy talking to each other about anything! (or we're just silly! :mrgreen: ) )

CrossBlade

but Im always innocent....aint I. LOL

belive me, the "naughty" thoughts are always flying around me, I just try to keep them to myself so as to not crupt all the other "innocent" ppl on the fourms...*G*

Zebula77

*feels very tempted to recite Darth Vader's 'Come to the Dark Side' speech from The Empire Strikes Back* Grin

Magela_earth

spam spam spam

scarlettdoll

"I have to push the pram alot"

sorry. Blame Kin. :mrgreen:

Rainedancer

I thought we were ment to blame Zeb?

scarlettdoll

well yeah. Ok. Blame Zeb and Kin! Grin

Rainedancer

Yup that works for me Grin

Zebula77

Hrmf! Typical! :o

Rainedancer

Huh? Stands around looking innocent

Grin

stardreamer

Quote:
Rainedancer

Huh? Stands around looking innocent

Grin


hey thats my job :roll: Grin

Zebula77

Oh, no! They've finally discovered that we work together! Nooo, our scheme is unveiled. Surprised Grin

stardreamer

finaly???? :roll: Grin

Magela_earth

*Alter-ego takes over and Manda blames herself*

It was you, sneaky theives

I don't think anyone was to blame here *to own hand*

Oh yes they are p-precious *coughs "comics, comics" in gollumic way*

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