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Trolls Versus Elves

Trollbabe

Hi from Trollbabe, opener of a potential can of worms... :)

It always bothered me that when the Scroll of Colors was revealed and "read" aloud (I forget which issue), everybody just took it as factual history. Look at the centuries of serious scholarly research and debate that have gone into the Bible and many other ancient forms of writing, as well as heiroglyphics and cave paintings. Just because the Palace contained a document that was obviously the result of very advanced technology, should we accept that my ancestors were a mischievous servant class that evolved from primates that couldn't even climb trees? I watched "X-Men 3" on the biggest, newest and best movie screen and sound system in my community. Does that mean everything I saw actually happened?

Don't get me wrong, I respect elves and their heritage. Even if a certain tribe of elves is less physically developed, less technologically advanced, and prefers magic over the modern medical advances of herbs and mushrooms, I accept their oral tradition of having been descended from, what was it, a half-wolf? (Given several more generations and the absense of a healer, some storyteller is going to die of anemeia telling the story anyway... ) But what serious effort has gone into seeking and revealing our side of the shared history of elves and trolls?

Maybe the trolls were here first, along with the humans, when the elves crashed the party. Speaking of which, if I crashed a gold-plated stretch limousine in an impoverished, primitive neighborhood of hunters and gatherers, scaring the beejeebers out of the natives in the process, and emerged wearing Prada shoes, a Rolex and a Vera Wang gown, would I be surprised if somebody clubbed me over the head? No, I'd think I had it coming.

Has any serious effort been put into finding out how everything really got started?

Badger

I don't actually know what's this all about, being a badger and livin' inna hole.
But yes, I think trolls don't get enough credit.
Um... Say 'hello' to Avrian, modern troll of Finland.
[img:fea7937367]http://www.internationalhero.co.uk/a/avrian1.jpg[/img:fea7937367]

Trollbabe

:D Oooh, he's a hottie! Has he got a girlfriend?

Badger

The figure behind him.
A 200-year-old witch. She got an egg of the time-worm, and she got younger. Or something.

Anyhoo, there is still this other troll available, a gentle forest-troll.
I'll search you the pic.

[img:166bdd601b]http://img.mtv3.fi/mn_kuvat/mtv3/viihde/leffasivujen_kuvat/38176.jpg[/img:166bdd601b]

Trollbabe

Gentle? If he's wielding a flaming arrow, I'd hate to see what an aggressive troll does!
Am happily hitched but I have several available girlfriends and the tribe could always use some new blood. Tawdry just had her coming-out party. It was catered - you should have seen the three tiered moss-cake. Her gown was embroidered with a gazillion beetle wings. Nothing's too good for us Troll queens and princesses!

Badger

Ok, the pic's kinda bad. He's attacking (the meaning was to scare them a bit!) at some...
Lemme think for minute or too...
Some forest-spirits. There's no proper word in english for them.
Bugger.

And I was there, we badger's dig holes deep and trot trough the forests alot.

Trollbabe

Watch out for those dachsund-riding elves who hunt badgers! :D

Badger

I hide well.
And never come at angry badger, we can really kick some butt.
One badger-species is actually gone just because of the fighting. Humans hunted them all down and used at dog-fights.
Not good.

But, back to the trolls..
I'm right behind you! Why trolls (and gnomes) do not get any credits?

Trollbabe

Because trolls and gnomes don't look like the pale, anorexic model of beauty that the Western industrial world imposes upon us every day.

The fighting badger - a formidable foe for Wolverine. Also the official mascot of the University of Wisconsin.

For all of you elves out there, a "university" is a place in which "students" of various "disciplines" seek an "education" - I'm terribly sorry, here I am babbling in words that have no possible translation in Elvish tongue. HAH!!!

Badger

Education = Good .
(Says the one who never thought the idea of going to high school or university.
I am a gardener student, gonna graduate next year, hopefully.)

I always wondered, why elves didn't think about "What's behind the woods?"
"Will there be something exciting on those mountains?"
Humans had to burn the forest down before elves sarted thinking of other places.

Trollbabe

... It makes a dandy placemat.

Art and English majors - we're here, we cashier, get used to it.

Avrian looks a bit like my mental image of Reynardine.

Back to the off-topic, I think there are miles and miles of tunnel carvings, paintings, burial sites and caches that would reveal quite a bit of Troll history. they have been purposely sealed and hidden to protect them from being desecrated by elves who, for lack of rock-shapers, are too lazy to dig refuse pits and latrines.

Badger

I have always thought that stories of trolls have started when humans have encountered nests of great horned owl.
The baby owls look a lot like some kind of trolls, with their dark presence and orange eyes.

Badger

Just imagine seeing [url=http://www.student.oulu.fi/~tima/kuvat/huuhkaja.jpg]this[/url] in shadows of evening in a forest.
These owls usually have their nest in the roots of fallen spruces and holes of rocks.

krwordgazer

WHat a fun topic, Trollbabe! But it really isn't an Off-Topicism, since it's about Elfquest history-- so I'm moving it to The Great Egg. And to make things interesting, I'm going to take the elves' side in this debate. :mrgreen:

Quote:
Trollbabe


It always bothered me that when the Scroll of Colors was revealed and "read" aloud (I forget which issue), everybody just took it as factual history. Look at the centuries of serious scholarly research and debate that have gone into the Bible and many other ancient forms of writing, as well as heiroglyphics and cave paintings. Just because the Palace contained a document that was obviously the result of very advanced technology, should we accept that my ancestors were a mischievous servant class that evolved from primates that couldn't even climb trees? I watched "X-Men 3" on the biggest, newest and best movie screen and sound system in my community. Does that mean everything I saw actually happened?



There's a very good reason why the Scroll of Colors was accepted as factual, Trollbabe-- we actually had an eyewitness present who could attest to everything that appeared on the Scroll. Unlike human documents, which have to be subjected to historical internal and external tests because the writers have such short lives, elf "documents" can be verified by their authors! :D


[quote:f5fbc09317]Don't get me wrong, I respect elves and their heritage. Even if a certain tribe of elves is less physically developed, less technologically advanced, and prefers magic over the modern medical advances of herbs and mushrooms, I accept their oral tradition of having been descended from, what was it, a half-wolf? (Given several more generations and the absense of a healer, some storyteller is going to die of anemeia telling the story anyway... ) But what serious effort has gone into seeking and revealing our side of the shared history of elves and trolls?[/quote:f5fbc09317]

Well, you trolls can certainly make the effort if you wish to-- you put so much effort into mining and smelting! But why should we elves doubt our own High One?

[quote:f5fbc09317]Maybe the trolls were here first, along with the humans, when the elves crashed the party. Speaking of which, if I crashed a gold-plated stretch limousine in an impoverished, primitive neighborhood of hunters and gatherers, scaring the beejeebers out of the natives in the process, and emerged wearing Prada shoes, a Rolex and a Vera Wang gown, would I be surprised if somebody clubbed me over the head? No, I'd think I had it coming.[/quote:f5fbc09317]

There are several points in evidence that trolls and elves came from the same world, and that it's a different world from the World of Two Moons:

1. Trolls are immortal, like non-wolfblooded elves. Picknose has been alive more than 10,000 years; Old Maggoty probably close to 18,000.

2. Trolls (with a little healer's help) can breed with elves and produce offspring. Ok, so it's only happened once, but that's more children than humans and elves can produce!

3. If it weren't for trolls' presence in the Palace in the first place, how do you account for the crash? Answer that, Miss uppity Troll! Grin

(Elf folds arms and looks superior Wink )

cactus

And then there's Hidden Years #6 and #7, where we can actually see the whole thing happen Wink
And we can also see that one of the high ones are being somewhat less than nice to a troll, which can partly explain why the trolls rebelled..

Suzene

Well, my biggest reason for believing the story of the Scroll of Colors is that Timmain is sending the history to Suntop in order to speak through his mouth. You can't lie in sending.

Also, Guttlecraw knew the history as well. "It'll be the end of our rule and the return of theirs" was why the Northern trolls battled to keep the Palace for so long; they had reason to believe that if the elves took back the Palace, there would be retaliation for everything to the Palace War stretching all the way back to The Fall.

Suzene

Foxeye

Grin

This thread gets 10 out of 10 stars from me.

I, personally, like 'em green...

My second-favorite character of all time:



But I suspect my orc is probably a little too much like a human/elf to earn troll-approval. That's ok, I still love her.

Shadikka

Hmm... I don't know whether to take elves' or trolls' side. :D Probably elves', though, since I believe in that. Reasons? The same which already have been brought up.
- Hidden Years, yes. We see the whole thing.
- Timmain sending the events
- Why would they've crashed? ;)
- Trolls telling about the things...

Well, off the repeating. There's mainly just one question - why would the elves lie? And since elves and trolls are both immortal... :roll:

innie

I think it's weird that only Kahvi enraged when they learned that trolls had caused the crash. They had just fought a very bloody war against them and many of their friends had died. Ofcourse Kahvi reacted the way she did. But it was Cutter who gave the knowledge a twist by seeing it the other way: elves and trolls came together and should live together. That's the truth ofcourse. But you would expect at least some elves to stand up against the trolls. Or maybe there was no reason for revenge anymore since they'd won the war and such a grudge might not be in their natures.

Suzene

Pretty much. Cutter's folk and Picknose's had just finishing fighting side by side against a common enemy. I think it was too soon after the battle to just push that aside, especially given that the 'Now' of Wolfrider thought doesn't really jibe much with holding a grudge for wrongs done 10,000 years ago. Even Timmain didn't seem upset over it, and she was one of those directly wronged.

Suzene

krwordgazer

So. . . is anyone else going to take the Trolls' side? I mean, the whole story as it was told is from the Elves' point of view. As far as their rebellion is concerned, I can understand perfectly why the Trolls would start to chafe under the dictatorship (benevolent, yes, but dictatorship nonetheless) of the High Ones. . .

Suzene

Good question and not an easy one. It's a bit like asking if my dog has the right to rebel against me, in some ways. The Trolls started off as little groundhogs and evolved alongside the High Ones for thousands of years. If my dog woke up sapient tomorrow and started telling me in plain language that she was my equal, I have no idea how I'd react. On the one hand, she'd be an intelligent creature. On the other hand, she still wouldn't be able to work the remote, use the can opener, let herself out for a walk, or pay her own vet bills due to the opposable thumbs issue. I'd guess that's kind of where the High Ones were -- here are these super-evolved beings living with these little green hobbits who couldn't take advantage of the technology/magic all around them even if they tried, so they couldn't really act as equals with the High Ones. At the same time, though, those little green hobbits had the right to decide their own destiny, didn't they? Even if it meant getting dropped onto an alien planet and taking their own chances?

I dunno. One issue that never really is made plain is whether or not the ancestors of the trolls ever outright said, "Right, we're sick of this stinking sparkly ship and these damned Preservers. Drop us off at the next habitable rock." I think ignoring a statement like that would make the Trolls justified in rebelling, but I think the most that's said about that issue is that the High Ones failed to notice a growing resentment in their companions. In that case, what were they supposed to do? Drop kick the proto-troll population off of the ship because they weren't acting grateful enough?

Nah. I still come down on the side of the High Ones in this. I can understand why the Trolls would do what they did, but I still don't agree with it. If they wanted off that badly, they could have just made a break for it when the ship landed in the proper time instead of taking everyone down with them.

Suzene

Badger

Right, this is off-topic, but I think no one has a right to call ancient trolls as 'green little hobbits'. They might look the same, have some common habit's, yes, but hobbit is a hobbit. Hobbit, halfling, Shire-folk, gentle agricultural persons.
Trolls are not.
Same thing if I'd call elves to as something else.
Or fairies and pixies. What if I'd just say, that there is no preservers, there are just pixies?

I know. There is no point in this message, but now I'm upset because of the comparison between trolls and hobbits. They are two different races.

MaxvonBek

If 'How Shall I Keep from Singing?' is anything like historical accuracy, then we have Haken to partly blame for the way the trolls had begun to think.
However, it seems from what little we're shown from before the crash that the proto-trolls were just as conniving as their descendants - the trolls that survive on Abode today are not like they are because of any direct elven intervention (with the possible excpetion of Picknose's clan), but rather their own morally-suspect natures! :D

Suzene

Quote:
Badger

Right, this is off-topic, but I think no one has a right to call ancient trolls as 'green little hobbits'. They might look the same, have some common habit's, yes, but hobbit is a hobbit. Hobbit, halfling, Shire-folk, gentle agricultural persons.
Trolls are not.
Same thing if I'd call elves to as something else.
Or fairies and pixies. What if I'd just say, that there is no preservers, there are just pixies?



Which would be entirely what I was basing the comparison on because I'm not taking this discussion with anything even close to deadly seriousness.

[quote:1ae14ac3a5]I know. There is no point in this message, but now I'm upset because of the comparison between trolls and hobbits. They are two different races.[/quote:1ae14ac3a5]

Are you sure? :roll:

Suzene

krwordgazer

Well, they did kind of look like hobbits in those early pictures of them leaving the Palace. :) I myself read no disrespect towards either hobbits or trolls in Suzenne's post.

I have heard Preservers referred to as pixies before, too. . . Wink

Trollbabe

Please forgive me if my access to computers is somewhat limited at the moment, but I will try to keep up with the debate. BTW Suzene's mention of dogs reminded me of the old line that humans think they are superior to dogs, but you don't see dogs cleaning up after humans. :)

It's possible for Trolls and Elves to get beyond any conflict about where we came from. Uncle Blindfish says that there is no sense in Trolls and Elves fighting over a palace when the Trolls can build twenty palaces if they all pull together. As far as Trolls rebelling against the High Ones,
he says that was inevitable. You can't keep an intelligent race in bondage.

(My Uncle Blindfish is a water and sewer contractor, and he's very diplomatic. His work takes him outside the Troll community, so it's necessary to respect other races and to have a sense of humor. But his son Gnat hardly conceals his contempt for Elves. Uncle Blindfish started working as a kid, going from cave to cave with a pick and shovel, and he passed his work ethic on to Gnat. Gnat gripes that the Wolfriders won't even lift a shovel to bury their own dead. I didn't tell him about this forum, because he would start posting demeaning Elf jokes.)

Troll history on my side isn't always easy to trace. This is mainly because one side of the family is matrilinear and the other side is patrilinear. The Grubbs go by their mother's names and the Hammers go by their father's names. When a Grubb married a Hammer, they adopted the name Grubhammer. Yes, we got teased by kids who asked if we smashed grubs with hammers, sigh... Gnat has his big stinky feet up now and is telling the ripe old joke about how one Elf cub says "My sire can beat up your sire!" etc. He's incorrigible.

I think the best reason Trolls and Elves can co-exist is simply because they can live on two separate layers of the same piece of real estate. You've heard that expression, "solid as the rock of Gibraltar"? Well, the rock of Gibraltar is riddled with tunnels. So next time you look at a cliff or a mountain, just remember it may look like solid rock to you, but it could very well be full o0f upscale Troll condos.

As far as Trolls being agrarian, I think Picknose had some kind of garden going when he and Oddbit and Maggoty were between caves. It depends upon what you mean by "agrarian", too. Maggoty used plants and may have cultivated some of them. Trolls don't always have big neatly-bordered fields like humans keep. That doesn't mean we don't grow vines and root vegetables. We just don't make them an obvious target. There's also not much sense to domesticating cows and horses, since these animals thrive in an environment of sunlight and wide open spaces.

MaxvonBek

I can't see ol' Pickie planting a garden - that was Maggoty all the way! :D

And she is one amazing old lady - without her, Strongbow would be dead, and she's probably lived unguessable amounts of time. She'd even be a match for Two-Edge! Grin

Trollbabe

kwordgazer asks: "If it weren't for trolls' presence in the Palace in the first place, how do you account for the crash? Answer that, Miss uppity Troll! "

Uncle Blindfish offers the possibility that Trolls were indigenous to more than one planet, having used their advanced technology to populate other worlds. Cousin Gnat says something I can't repeat here. I really DO wish he would get his own bag of Bella Bites. (Available from Fun-Guy Foods, found in your grocer's Myto Snacks section and at all Bracket by the Bucket locations, Fun-Guy, it's Finger Lichen Good... Ratbait said if I threw that in there he would give me a discount on my next purchase.)

If the Trolls did arrive with the High Ones, and if they did cause the crash, I would have to go with the sentiment that, while conditions on board were not that of a slave ship, captivity is captivity.

Kitt

[color=green:798590d3e7]I don't blame anyone. I think the elves looked at the trolls as they would a pet. Was that a mistake, yes, but it was purely innocent. The trolls, of course, decided for themselves that they were fully santient (sp) beings who could exact their will over themselves and, as such, decided to emancipate themselves. Was it at the worst possible time ever, yes. But, it was a mistake. Mistakes were made on both sides and...that's just that. :?[/color:798590d3e7]

Badger

[quote:2bca3f1754="Suzene"]
[quote:2bca3f1754]I know. There is no point in this message, but now I'm upset because of the comparison between trolls and hobbits. They are two different races.[/quote:2bca3f1754]

Are you sure? :roll:

Suzene[/quote:2bca3f1754]

I'm dead sure. I've met both kinds. Grin

krwordgazer

[quote:98fd57b955="Trollbabe"]kwordgazer asks: "If it weren't for trolls' presence in the Palace in the first place, how do you account for the crash? Answer that, Miss uppity Troll! "

Uncle Blindfish offers the possibility that Trolls were indigenous to more than one planet, having used their advanced technology to populate other worlds. Cousin Gnat says something I can't repeat here. I really DO wish he would get his own bag of Bella Bites. (Available from Fun-Guy Foods, found in your grocer's Myto Snacks section and at all Bracket by the Bucket locations, Fun-Guy, it's Finger Lichen Good... Ratbait said if I threw that in there he would give me a discount on my next purchase.)

If the Trolls did arrive with the High Ones, and if they did cause the crash, I would have to go with the sentiment that, while conditions on board were not that of a slave ship, captivity is captivity.[/quote:98fd57b955]

Heh. I suppose you'd say, Miss Troll, that it was the High Ones' incompetent piloting that caused the crash?

The Trolls are what they are because the Palace's power made them evolve so quickly. (sticks out tongue) So keep a civil tongue in your head! Wink

As for the blatant profit-mongering of using this forum for troll advertising, well, any elf would be disgusted by that. (secretly eats a Bella Bite)

kayleigh_talitha

I'm no fan of the trolls either, though they do provide us with comcial relief from time to time.

But what happened with the High Ones is nature running its course. Slavery is wrong, and every creature wants freedom, even if they're hardly evolved at all. And because of the cavemen thoughts of the early trolls, they ended their slavery with the only thing they could understand, violence.

I'm sure the High Ones meant well with the trolls, but I don't get the whole servant idea. I mean, look at how the Wolfriders were repulsed when they found out humans were being used as slaves in the Blue Mountain.

lunakat

It does seem that the High Ones ignored the troll's evolution-- that they continued to treat them as domesticated pets, when they were clearly sentient and self-conscious creatures.

Timmain says that the preservers "were willing helpers" while the trolls worked grudgingly, and for their own benefit. Sounds like a case of Ariel and Caliban-- the High Ones being Prospero.

kayleigh_talitha

I wonder what they were thinking that would justify 'keeping' the trolls.

Did they truly believe they did it for the trolls own good? Perhaps they did and they forgot all creature would evolve one way or the other. The passing of time means nothing to them, so perhaps they forgot.

krwordgazer

Ok -- so what gives with the Preservers, then? Why are they so willing to serve "highthings"?

Personally, I think it's because they don't see themselves as serving the highthings so much as taking care of them. Whether they like it or not! Grin

NobleAtrocity

[quote:0b6c010213="krwordgazer"]Ok -- so what gives with the Preservers, then? Why are they so willing to serve "highthings"?

Personally, I think it's because they don't see themselves as serving the highthings so much as taking care of them. Whether they like it or not! Grin[/quote:0b6c010213]

Okay, that had me bursting at the seams. :D

I don't think that the high ones consciously recognized the evolution of the trolls, through no intended fault of thier own. It's like when you raise a kid (which i'm speculating on since i haven't have to put up with that kind of torture... i mean, haven't had that pleasure :D ) Some parents wouldn't notice right away when thier little Suzie younger becomes a woman, the kid has to do something drastic like get a job and move out, or get pregnant or other such silly thing before mom's brain clicks and she realizes that "wow, my little girl isn't a little girl anymore". And i know that not all parents have this problem, but it happens, and the evolutional timeline of most species is admittedly slower than that of the teenager. High Ones living life to it's fullest and exploring the worlds around them most likely wouldn't notice a change as subtle as that. It just kinda sneaks up on you. (Like when someone who hasn't seen you in a while comments on how much longer your hair is, while you never noticed that much has changed with it.)

[quote:0b6c010213="kayleigh_talitha"]But what happened with the High Ones is nature running its course. Slavery is wrong, and every creature wants freedom, even if they're hardly evolved at all. And because of the cavemen thoughts of the early trolls, they ended their slavery with the only thing they could understand, violence.

I'm sure the High Ones meant well with the trolls, but I don't get the whole servant idea. I mean, look at how the Wolfriders were repulsed when they found out humans were being used as slaves in the Blue Mountain.[/quote:0b6c010213]

I think that has to do with the caveman mentality that you mentioned causing them to rebel in the only way they knew how at that point in thier evolution... for the same reason they became the 'servants' because as they did become more useful, though in kind of a childlike way, those were the jobs that they could do to help out. Kind of like when you train your dog to fetch your paper for you, he doesn't think of it as slavery, but if your dog evolved during your lifetime and you didn't notice and treated him the same, he would eventually grow to resent it. As to why they kept them as servants when/if they realized that the trolls had grown into a mentally mature race? My guess is that it has to do with them being complacent with the way things are and not really realizing it's wrong because it's just the way things had been for so long. Again I think it's partly due to the extremely slow nature of evolution.

[quote:0b6c010213="kayleigh_talitha"]I wonder what they were thinking that would justify 'keeping' the trolls.

Did they truly believe they did it for the trolls own good? Perhaps they did and they forgot all creature would evolve one way or the other. The passing of time means nothing to them, so perhaps they forgot. [/quote:0b6c010213]

I pretty much agree with you on that one except i believe it's more along the lines of them being too distracted and complacent to notice, as opposed to them having 'forgotten'.

Trollbabe

krwordgazer, Preserver, asks, "... what gives with the Preservers, then? Why are they so willing to serve "highthings"? Personally, I think it's because they don't see themselves as serving the highthings so much as taking care of them. Whether they like it or not!"

Agreed. The mentality of the Preservers is more childlike than that of the Elves, Trolls and Humans. Preservers impulsively wrap up just about anything that breathes, whether it's in keeping with their original function or not. That's why they were such a mystery when they first appeared. Wings also gave them more physical freedom. Being a natural impulse, their job is actually a lot of fun to them.

Without generating another thread, I would say that if the Preserves had become more sophisticated at the same time as the Trolls, they might have just as easily initiated rebellion. "Nastybad Highthings oppress proletariat masses! Petalwing much vexed!"

The fact that Trolls were meant to be free is obvious in the accomplishments of Picknose and Drub. The fact that Trolls and Elves were meant to live peacefully together is obvious in the profits we made from last week's hides-for-metal exchange.

lunakat

Quote:
Trollbabe

Without generating another thread, I would say that if the Preserves had become more sophisticated at the same time as the Trolls, they might have just as easily initiated rebellion. "Nastybad Highthings oppress proletariat masses! Petalwing much vexed!"


That's too funny! (Yes, i agree- the preservers' main desire seems to be to fulfill their various functions. They just want to do their job-- not because they are doing it for any purpose in particular, but because it's just what they do.

[quote:382c8b5096]The fact that Trolls were meant to be free is obvious in the accomplishments of Picknose and Drub. The fact that Trolls and Elves were meant to live peacefully together is obvious in the profits we made from last week's hides-for-metal exchange.[/quote:382c8b5096]
hah! Troll babe, you are hot!

krwordgazer

Quote:
Trollbabe

krwordgazer, Preserver, asks, "... what gives with the Preservers, then? Why are they so willing to serve "highthings"? Personally, I think it's because they don't see themselves as serving the highthings so much as taking care of them. Whether they like it or not!"



Heh, heh. I guess I'll have to go make some more wrapstuff now. Wink

Trollbabe

Had tea today with Aunt Oakgall, and she says the Palace crashed because the male High Ones wouldn't ask for directions :)

Trolls, Humans and Elves share the same environments at different times, from forests to spaceships, but it is the tendency of Trolls to live either underground or inside mountains. Trolls really can't take much sunlight, but they can go aboveground on a regular basis if they become nocturnal. Humans, on the other hand, need a lot more sunlight if they are to avoid disease.

The Wolfriders became nocturnal and some of the Gliders never seemed to leave Blue Mountain. Does that mean than Elves don't really need sunlight? Obviously the Sun Folk don't suffer from it, but (SPOILER) they built caves eventually.

Again, I think the fact that Trolls don't need sunlight has insured our survival - out of sight, out of firing range, as Elder Brine used to say. (That, of course, doesn't mean we don't walk among you, well covered.) So maybe Trolls have an advantage over Elves, if the latter have to have more exposure to the sun.

Another mystery... When the Palace landed, I think the Trolls burrowed into the ground to avoid extermination. In the Palace, however, they all shared the same lighting and probably didn't do much digging.

RichardPini

[quote:bac7d70d4a="Trollbabe"]Had tea today with Aunt Oakgall, and she says the Palace crashed because the male High Ones wouldn't ask for directions :) [/quote:bac7d70d4a]

Spit take!

:spit:

Trollbabe

Dear Mr. Pini,

The Toadwallow Library has strict rules against beverages in general and alcohol in particular. When our librarian, Mrs. Toadwallow, found me sitting at a monitor drenched in Elf-Pop-spit, consisting of gin with just a hint of tonic, I almost lost my priveleges. However, she was quite understanding when I pointed out that the offending party was on the other side of the screen. She just rolled her eyes and muttered something about inebriated Elves.

Please don't get the wrong impression. Mrs. Toadwallow is quite open-minded about Elves. As tots, we sat at her feet at storytime and thrilled to the adventures of Cutter and Bearclaw. She has even included Elfquest volumes on the shelf in the Juvenile section.

Mrs. Toadwallow is even willing to forgive the damages if WaRP will publish her twenty-volumn history of the Abodean Trolls. The hard copy is on its way to you via express tunnel. Please secure all pets and crockery. When you here a tapping noise under the floor, stand clear.

Sincerely,
Trollbabe

Badger

Are badgers allowed? *Smirks*

Trollbabe

Badgers are certainly permitted in our public library system. They are more likely to be encountered in our courts of law, in which they can be found badgering the witness.

Badger

Gee, wow. :D
I wish MY library was as accepting as trollish one. It seems that the librarians have something against me.
Except the one, who's actually kinda cute. ;)

Anyways, I haven't met trolls for AGES, I've been more with nightmares and that kind of things. And yes, I've been more touched to the elves.

Trollbabe

Professor Groupergill of OMI* would like to know if there is a Latin name for Badger-people. He categorizes intelligent life as Human (Homo sapiens), Preserver (Homo papillonius), Troll (Homo dominus) and Elf (Homo osteoporosis.) Badgers are a critical part of our express tunnel system, and have been vital in keeping down the rodent population.

*Old Maggoty Institute of Arts and Sciences. Yes, it does go by the nickname "Oh My!" Alumni associations have adopted cutesy names like OMI-GOSH and OMI Goodness. The school fight song begins, "Oh, my! Oh, my! (Name of opposing team), prepare to die!... "

Arthis

Quote:
Trollbabe

Elf (Homo osteoporosis.)

I'm laughting so hard my ribs ache (sorry if that doesn't mean a thing in English, it does in French)

krwordgazer

Oh, my! Grin

ReenBladesong

Trolls dont got pointy ears.

That is all I will say.

cactus

Quote:
Arthis

[quote:8507e73149="Trollbabe"]Elf (Homo osteoporosis.)

I'm laughting so hard my ribs ache (sorry if that doesn't mean a thing in English, it does in French)[/quote:8507e73149]
What does it mean in French :D ?

Nowth

I think it means laughing so hard that your ribs ache...

Badger

Quote:
Trollbabe

Professor Groupergill of OMI* would like to know if there is a Latin name for Badger-people. He categorizes intelligent life as Human (Homo sapiens), Preserver (Homo papillonius), Troll (Homo dominus) and Elf (Homo osteoporosis.) Badgers are a critical part of our express tunnel system, and have been vital in keeping down the rodent population.



Well, I always concidered myself as Homo sapiens with a lycanthropy. Or maybe I am Homo lycanthropus.
Since I have noticed, that my life isn't that much around moon, so I might be my own individual, Homo pseudomeles, "human-who-is-a-fake-badger"
because badger is Meles meles in Latin.

Badger

Tell professor Groupergill, that I'm more than glad to discuss about Latin names. I happen to have lots of free time.

Aldar

I'm just Homo. Still, be sure to include me in that troll encyclopedia of yours.

[size=9:bc6a0592e4]And I think I got the osteoporosis joke...[/size:bc6a0592e4]

Trollbabe

Aldar, thank you for Cher-ing.

cactus

[img:74daca7d51]http://www.cheesebuerger.de/images/midi/frech/a096.gif[/img:74daca7d51] Funny.

Aldar

[quote:6e7e1bc468="Trollbabe"]Aldar, thank you for Cher-ing.[/quote:6e7e1bc468]
Always a pleasure. :D I felt that it was crucial information. Wink

Cactus, girl! What ya up to? Gotta PM ya. :end spam:

Trollbabe

I have to say, after Thanksgiving, Trolls are superior cooks compared to Elves. Wolriders don't even cook, as far as I gather. We are also superior herbalists, superior stoneworkers (Yes, Blue Mountain was gorgeous, but where is it now?), superior poets, superior musicians, dancers, sculptors, athletes, horticulturists, mathematicians, chemists... I could go on, but I have to get back to my fusion device.

Trollbabe

I admit I haven't gone through all of Digital EQ, and there are some big gaps in my print collection. But it seems that the Palace crash-landed on the WoTM because the Trolls got tired of riding in the back seat and asking, "Are we there yet?"



Humans, Elves and Trolls came and went, but for thousands of years, the Palace remained fixed. Finally a Preserver and the last High One returned, along with latter-day Elves who had teaching and experience in working magic on the WoTM. Then Picknose and his kin became the first latter-day Trolls to fly in the Palace.



The Trolls fly in the Palace more than once, not always with their consent. (Trinket) is even among those kidnapped into the future. The Trolls generally seem to have a distaste for flying in it, although Drub and Flam agree to the return trip in Shards #16.



Having no magic of their own, Trolls can't hope to control the palace any better than did their ancestors. But how much right do they have to ownership of the Palace, and to decide when and where it goes? At least Picknose and his lineage deserve some share in the Palace, beyond hitching a ride home.

Trollbabe

I am in the process of reading the old storyboards that have been downloded (Thank you, WaRP!!), and am delighting in the fact that Trolls have such an active role in it. Even the Preservers acknowledge our shared heritage!

Trollbabe

Like many civilizations, Troll society on Abode began with a violent revolution, followed by a long history of adjustment to self-government in a new environment, by trial and error. This progress involved a succession of organized monarchies, good and bad. Despite the ups and downs of government, family structure seemed to improve overall.



Trolls and Elves share some common values, although it takes time for them to see this in each other. As Maggoty remarked in "Hidden Years," Trolls and Elves value family. Despite ill will between Picknose and the grandmother of his beloved Oddbit, it's Maggoty whom Picknose accompanies to safety when Greymung's kingdom collapses.



Troll's attitudes toward women change, from Guttlekraw keeping women confined to protected quarters, to Drub becoming Queen. Greymung and Guttlekraw were abusive toward Elf children, but by Flam's generation, all children were valued.



We don't see nearly as much of the Troll children as the Elf children. We certainly can't hold Trinket as representative of all "mumps." She was born into royalty, and spoilt by her three elders, although Maggoty later urged Drub to encourage her to make something of herself. Oddbit was a dysfunctional mother, sharing responsibility with Rayek for Trinket's disappearance. Oddbit was perhaps the last Troll woman to be afforded the luxury of poor judgment and laziness. Had Trinket not been transported into the far future, she might have worked as hard as her siblings, nieces and nephews to build Picknose's kingdom.



Two-Edge is perhaps the most tragic of all Elfquest characters. It was his Elf mother who abused him to madness. His father apparently cared enough about him to teach him a trade, even though he died while Picknose was still too young to defend himself.



Picknose was just as distraught over his daughter's kidnapping, as was Cutter over the loss of his family. But he channeled his grief into building a kingdom and raising a family. In Picknose's kingdom, the Trolls all seemed to be aware of their lineage. Fatherhood is a rank as well as a responsibility. Deadbeats and absentees need not apply.



Compare this to Skywise, who gives little thought to the Go-Back children he may have fathered. I guess he decided that the warmth of pre-battle orgies was enough to make up for the co-op nursery, the sharp toys and the spare attention. Tyldak was actually chained up when Windkin is a baby. But after the collapse of Blue Mountain, he had plenty of time to reach the Sun Village and get involved in the boy's life. They only meet years later, on opposite sides of the field of battle.



Enraged that the daughter he believes is his own, has died at birth in his absense, Rayek destroys the only place she might have been carefully hidden away. His grief over his lost daughter contrasts sharply with his later kidnaping of three small children. Kahvi has no reservations about killing the father of her child, but misses the opportunity. Gomez and Morticia Addams couldn't have made more macabre parents.

Nowth

Quote:
Nah. I still come down on the side of the High Ones in this. I can understand why the Trolls would do what they did, but I still don't agree with it. If they wanted off that badly, they could have just made a break for it when the ship landed in the proper time instead of taking everyone down with them.




Maybe they had seen on the High Ones' wibbly-wobbly detector that their target time was full of elf-worshipping medieval humans... they had probably had enough of that by then.

Trollbabe

If the proto-Trolls were the ship's technicians, and they knew that the High Ones wanted to land in the time when Elves were worshipped, maybe they knew that pushing the ship back into the past gave their race time to grow bigger, while the High Ones' descendants grew smaller.

Firstcoming: Tiny proto-Trolls, really tall High Ones.

Fire and Flight: Four-foot Southern Trolls, taller Northern Trolls, Elves ranging from four to five feet tall.

Embala

I don't know how much the Proto-Trolls had known and how carefully this rebellion was planned. They were much more than instinct driven have half-apes for sure - but not (time)engineers at all. I seriously doubt that they would have understood the concept of time traveling, even when they might have heard about something like that. Therefore I see no possibility that it was planned to send the sphere back in time.

And I don't think that the result of this "wake-up call" could be planned at all. Destroying the cocoons is comparable to shoot the driver of a racing car - the shootist has no controll about the direction the car will take and where it will crash.

IMO the Proto-Trolls simply planned to cause enough confusion to leave the sphere without Coneheads building nets and barriers by mere thought.

Trollbabe

They didn't seem to have a knowledge of the (psychic technology?) that the High Ones possessed, and I am not sure how many functions they had. I assume they had fully developed speech. When Bearclaw and Maggoty meet, they are able to comunicate in a common tongue.

One reason I sympathise with the proto-Trolls, is that tall people treat me like a child at times. They don't wear enough drapery for me to tie it in knots under the table, though.

Trollbabe

Would somebody please check this, and tell me if the sequence is correct? Would you please let me know if you can clear up some of the vague points? Thank you!

Adapted from the elfquest.com timeline by Scott Blaser, sans dates:

Troll ancestors flee the Palace and regroup.
Guttlekraw becomes king of the Trolls.
Ekuar, and his rock-shaper companions Osek and Mekda, find the Palace and are enslaved by Guttlekraw.
At some point Guttlekraw begins to use mutilation to subordinate the Elves.

Ice forces Guttlekraw and the rest of the trolls to abandon the vicinity of the Palace.
Guttlekraw's Trolls move south, under the future Holt of the Wolfriders.
They probably take Osek, Mekda and Ekuar with them.
At some point, Mekda has been isolated from the two males. Perhaps the most insubordinate, she is eventually deprived of all four limbs and blinded.

At an undisclosed age, Maggotty babysits the infant Greymung.

Guttlekraw decides to move Trolls back to the Frozen Mountains, near the Palace.
Greymung rebels against Guttlekraw. Mekda escapes through the Tunnel of Golden Light during the battle.
Guttlekraw returns north, with those Trolls loyal to him. They take Mekda with them.

Maggoty remain with Greymung's Trolls.
Greymung sends an unnamed Troll off to search for rock-shapers.
At the same time, Winnowill leaves Blue Mountain, finds the Troll, seduces him and gives birth to Two-Edge. She later kills the Troll.
Two-Edge becomes a mysterious legend among the Trolls.

Bearclaw discovers the Trolls, and establishes trade with them.
Bearclaw becomes chief.

The Go-Backs settle in the Frozen Mountains. Hostilities begin between the Northern Trolls and the Go-Backs.

Cutter is tricked into spending a year underground, as slave to the Southern Trolls.

Bearclaw is killed. Cutter becomes chief.
Wolfriders flee the Holt and settle in Sorrow's End.

Rayek enters the Troll caves and befriends Ekuar. At the same time, Guttlekraw and the Northern Trolls attack.
Rayek and Ekuar are led through the Frozen Mountains by Two-Edge's voice, and are found by Go-Backs.
Guttlekraw kills Greymung, and enslaves most of his subjects. Only Picknose, Oddbit and Old Maggoty escape.
All the rest of the Trolls are led north to the Frozen Mountains, to work in the mines.

The Quest begins.

Embala


Would somebody please check this, and tell me if the sequence is correct? Would you please let me know if you can clear up some of the vague points? Thank you!
Let's see ...

Adapted from the elfquest.com timeline by Scott Blaser, sans dates:

Troll ancestors flee the Palace and regroup.
Guttlekraw becomes king of the Trolls.
Ekuar, and his rock-shaper companions Osek and Mekda, find the Palace and are enslaved by Guttlekraw.
At some point Guttlekraw begins to use mutilation to subordinate the Elves.

Ice forces Guttlekraw and the rest of the trolls to abandon the vicinity of the Palace.
Guttlekraw's Trolls move south, under the future Holt of the Wolfriders.
From the Tales of Love and Loss (EQ volume 2, # 29 - Ekuar told:
The day eventually arrived for us and the Trolls to set off on our journey. Guttlecraw decided to keep some of his Trolls in the north - - and that they should have one of us with them.

They probably take Osek, Mekda and Ekuar with them.

At some point, Mekda has been isolated from the two males. Perhaps the most insubordinate, she is eventually deprived of all four limbs and blinded.
From the Tales of Love and Loss (EQ volume 2, # 29 - Ekuar told:
They took Mekda. Our little follower had to take the Trolls' terror - - all alone.

So the Trolls took Osek and Ekuar with them to the south. The rockshapers had a major part in digging the tunnel.
Mekda stayed back in the north with the Trolls that were holding the fort. and at this time she was comparably whole.

At an undisclosed age, Maggotty babysits the infant Greymung.

Guttlekraw decides to move Trolls back to the Frozen Mountains, near the Palace.
Greymung rebels against Guttlekraw. Mekda escapes through the Tunnel of Golden Light during the battle.
Guttlekraw returns north, with those Trolls loyal to him. They take Mekda with them.
You mixed up names - Osek escapes through the Tunnel of Golden Light during the battle.
There was no need to take Mekda back to the north - because she was still there.
Ekuar stayed back in the tunnels under the Wolfrider Holt - starving! (I'll explain later)

- AND HERE IS A MAJOR INCONSISTENCY - I'll comment in another post.

Maggoty remain with Greymung's Trolls.
Greymung sends an unnamed Troll off to search for rock-shapers.
At the same time, Winnowill leaves Blue Mountain, finds the Troll, seduces him and gives birth to Two-Edge. She later kills the Troll.
Two-Edge becomes a mysterious legend among the Trolls.
The name of the Two-Edge's father is Smelt.

Bearclaw discovers the Trolls, and establishes trade with them.
Bearclaw becomes chief.

The Go-Backs settle in the Frozen Mountains. Hostilities begin between the Northern Trolls and the Go-Backs.

Cutter is tricked into spending a year underground, as slave to the Southern Trolls.
Cutter becomes chief.
Wolfriders flee the Holt and settle in Sorrow's End.
Agrees on the events - timeline is questionable.

- END OF THE INCONSISTENCY -

Rayek enters the troll caves and befriends Ekuar. At the same time, Guttlekraw and the Northern Trolls attack.

Rayek and Ekuar are led through the Frozen Mountains by Two-Edge's voice, and are found by Go-Backs.
Guttlekraw kills Greymung, and enslaves most of his subjects. Only Picknose, Oddbit and Old Maggoty escape.
All the rest of the Trolls are led north to the Frozen Mountains, to work in the mines.

The Quest begins.
*nods*

PCoquelin

What I find to be extremely interesting is the EVOLUTION of trolls.

Step 1:
. We see the 'coneheads' saving some strange, small ape-like species from their dying original world

......

Step 2:
. These evolve inside the Palace into small, intelligent humanoids
. Those humanoids cause the 'accident' having the Palace crashing at the wrong time
. Along the firstcomers, they flee humans, some even accompanying the elfin survivors

....

Step 3:
. They evolve more, but they stay VERY primitive, digging into the land
. Ekuar, Osek and Mekda are captured by such primitive and STURDY trolls
Note about it, by the way:
IT TAKES THREE YOUNG ROCK-SHAPERS TO MAKE A ROUGH HOLE INTO THE (still intact-looking) PALACE' DOOR..
  ..yet the trolls are already inside it!!

...

Step 4:
. They evolve even more, with more technology and culture of their own
. One tribe is led by Greymung and (thanks to Bearclaw and Cutter) gets comfy
. One tribe is led by Guttlekraw and develops warring ways, and wipes out Greymung's tribe,
  AND THEY GET BACK TO THE FROZEN MOUNTAINS
. Guttlekraw clearly hints at some past REIGN of elves against which those trolls FIGHT BRAVELY,
  meaning that the afore-mentioned reign is NOT ages old!
. Old Maggoty clearly knows MUCH about troll history but she keeps MUCH to herself

..

Step 5:
. Some trolls (led by Queen Drub) evolve even more, relying on technology
. Some trolls (isolated and relying too much on Ahdri's powers) DE-evolve ("The Searcher and the sword")




Wendy has proven to be extremely subtle and very good at hiding keys all along..
..and we, the readers, were essentially presented the whole story WITH THE ELVES' POINT OF VIEW!

Trollbabe

Thank you, Embala, for referring me to "Tales of Love and Loss", which explained everything I was wondering about. PCoquelin, I was amused byt eh whole idea of Trolls evolving and de-evolving up and down the scale.

Trollbabe

It's been almost two years since I posted on this thread. I really hope the Trolls show up in the next issue. So far, they've only appeared in two panels.

RichardPini

Trollbabe said: It's been almost two years since I posted on this thread. I really hope the Trolls show up in the next issue. So far, they've only appeared in two panels.


Patience...

Trollbabe

You're right, as an old Troll, I should show more patience. No Elf should be forced to have to follow our act.