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Gay rights - your opinion, please.

Leanan

In Palace Quest Holt, this subject came up. Let me give you a quote (with Xiu's generous permission):



Quote:




?) and yeah, same sex relationships aren't exactly my thing, (its bad enough I have to listen all of the "news" about them on the radios and on TV and the like), so yeah, if we can help it and try our best ot play it right, mayhaps there's a chance they can thrive here, (but I'm unsdure of how the sactual cats would take it..... (hehe)) I used that line mostly to keep from going same sex chatting talk, like I said i'm not exsactly a fan of al lthe crap on the news and in the papers and stuff about how gay and lexiban couples are being denied their rights and the like, its (personally) very stupid stuff to have on the news and also very gross to even try and think over too.







Xiu will not, if he means the last sentence, probably be participating in the discussion here.



However, I'm curious. How common is his type of opinion, not in society in general (where I know it to be very common), but among ElfQuest fans?



Are there others here who would rather that all gays just stayed in the closet?



And by contrast, are there gay people here? Bisexual people? Straight people who nonetheless think gays should have some rights, and aren't grossed out by the idea of, for example, two guys kissing?



I always thought this was a gay-friendly forum. I know a lot of the people who were active when I joined were actually gay, and not ashamed to admit it. I'm bisexual myself, and a gay rights activist of sorts.



ElfQuest, as a story, is a fantasy where all forms of love are accepted. The elves do not discriminate between 'gay' and 'straight'. They may have personal preferences, but they do not demand that others should show the same preferences or pretend to share them even if they wouldn't. Heck, if all the males in ElfQuest except Skywise stopped taking any kind of interest in females, Skywise would be one happy elf.

Vojira

I'm asexual myself, and I have no problem with homosexuals. They're as much human as the rest.

The ONLY thing I can't wrap my mind around is WHY they want to be married in churches, that belong to a religion that more or less says: You and your kind are sick. God hates you.

WolfMoonSky

I have no problems with homosexuals. My aunt is an lesbian (I never see her) an have now problem with it. I'm Straight and I kinda like gay people. They can be really funny and they can be a womans best friend!!



I don't like people who says things like: it's gross and your sick and that kind of stuf. Homosexuals are just people like us!! Too bad some of those people don't agree with me. It's kinda racist.



I'm not gonna hate Xiu. If he doens't like homosexuals, then he just doesn't. it's no good that he does, but some people just can't stand homosexuals.

Leanan

I didn't make this topic to get people to hate Xiu. I don't hate him. He said he has gay friends.

I just... this is a subject I feel strongly about. It's gotten me into online arguments before and it will do so again.

I made this topic to find out what people here think about gays. Xiu is being used as an example, but he gave me his permission to do so.

Vojira - I have been a Christian. Technically, I still am. I think the basic idea of gays wanting to be married in churches is this: They believe in God. They believe in the Christian God. They don't believe He hates gay people. They say it is the religious people who have twisted God's word to say things God didn't intend it to say. They want to be part of a religion that is about love and forgiveness. They are ready to change the Church, rather than to leave it and give up on believing.

Vojira

I'm well aware of that Leanan.Smile I do in no way mean to offend anybody.
The thing about the church is it does, for the most part, hate change. if it was dragged over a floor towards change it would dig it's nails into the floor and rather get said nails torn off then go near change.


He said he has gay friends and he goes off and say stuff like that?
Sounds...weird he would have friends that 'gross' him out.

Leanan

I'd say that your statement is true about most churches...

But the protestant church, and especially the Lutheran churches in Scandinavia are a bit different... we have female priests here... female bishops, even, in Sweden... Gays CAN marry in church in Denmark...

I think it has to do with the fact that the whole Protestant church is based on a protest... our church began when Martin Luther and some other people protested against the Catholic church...

They proved that churches CAN change. Religion CAN have revolutions.

I wish I could quote Xiu some more, but I left the Palace Quest group and can't access the forum anymore. Basically he said that his gay friends don't talk about being gay in detail because they know it grosses him out. I think his whole problem is not with gay people, it is with the idea of gay sex. Since the idea of gay sex grosses him out, he wants people around him not to talk about it. Or to even suggest that it happens, somewhere.

Basically the whole conversation began when I and another player wanted to make two female elf characters who were lovemates. He told us we could do this, but the rest of the tribe he'd made would be biased against them. I think. I found Xiu's replies a bit contradictory. There were an awful lot of cultural limitations, though, and in general I think I just got fed up with the idea that ElfQuest based elves wouldn't be allowed to love one of the same sex openly.

G0lden

Had to get in on this topic. I live here in California, we just had Prop. 8 passed to deny the right to marry to gay couples. They just recently couldn't get enough signatures to try and overturn Prop. I can probably give you a good reason why this happened. People are tired of it period. Doesn't matter if you are gay or straight either or how you feel about gay people, they're just tired of it. I had to deal with people protesting not even a mile away from my home until 2 am in the morning every night until the cops dispersed the crowds and until Prop. 8 failed. Then there was damage done to a Mormn Church building, people trying to put others out of business because they didn't believe in gay rights as they do. Gay people do have the right to have a registered union and the right to have the same rights as a married couple when it comes to taxes. Not to mention the right to serve in our military and to visit as a family memeber if one is in the hospital (which just got taken care of by Pres. Obama). Things like taxes need to be approached by changing the tax code, but as far as married sorry you lost me there. I have several friends that are gay and they fully understand my position on my feelings about gay marriage. There may come a time that may actually happen here in California, but now is not the time. What I don't understand is why gay people try to make their fight like those who are of color. Your sexuality you can for the most part hide if you wish to, but you can't hide the color of your skin. Never see how there was any corrolation to the two. BTW Prop. 8 passed because many of the Evangelical churchs and many African American dominated churchs ensured that Prop. 8 passed. The Mormon Church did help some, but not like the other churches did. Maybe they need to go and talk to those who live in Utah. The gay groups went to the Mormon Church and told what they would like to do and they actually got a concenses and the churches blessing to change a few things in the state of Utah. So basically if gay people choose to take baby steps (if you will), changes can be made, but not if you throw it in someone's else face who could really care less if you are gay or straight. They just want to you remember that you need to play be the same rules as they do and respect other people's opinions.

Ecko

all i have to really say on this subject is....i would love to marry my girlfriend. however it is not legal here in missouri. honestly the only reason would be for the benefits of that little piece of paper...otherwise i dont need any piece of paper to tell me i love my girlfriend and want to spend the rest of my life with her. I think maybe next summer we may be planning a commitment ceremony but other than that who knows what the future may bring.

however the one thing i do dislike is the people who judge me because of my sexuality...I have had numerous occasions where someone from a church have come up to me and tell me they can fix me...I'm gay....I'm not broken. or how i will be going to hell because I lay with women... how do you know whats going to happen to me. Your not the one who is gonna judge me.

I'm not saying I believe in God or I don't....I believe there is a higher power up there, and they put me here and gave me the choice to be who I am, so I don't think they will turn me away when the time comes.

Leanan

I'm not an American. I don't have all this media hype about Prop 8. I have never seen a 'God hates gays' demonstration.



As for the 'gays trying to make it look like racial equality' - it may be true of some gays.



Not here in Finland, not in Sweden. Here, racial equality has never BEEN an issue. There's never been a law saying black people should not sit in the front of the bus, not go to some bars, never any black slaves (there have been slaves... in ancient times, pagan Finns kept each other as slaves, it was part of the tribal warfare).



When black people have come here - yes, the Scandinavians may have stared at them at first, maybe talk about them in a disrespectful way or paint their own face black to make comedy that must have been funny in the 1930s... yes, Finland fought the wars on the side of the Nazis, Finland sent 8 Jews to Auschwitch-Birkenau, we believed the whole Aryan supremacy stuff... when I say 'we' I mean 'the generation of my grandparents'. We've moved on as a nation from never seeing black people to briefly suspecting them of being foreign and therefore the enemy, and then right on to accepting them, although we still do have our own anti-immigration groups and hatemongers. The point is, there have never been any laws in Finland that give one ethnic group different rights than another one. (unless you count the time when the Swedish had more rights than the Finnish, although that is debatable and in any case happened before our independence).



I'd like this to be an international discussion, not merely a pro/con prop 8 American one. If someone is tired of hearing about gays... why are they reading this? WHY?

Leanan

Quote:


all i have to really say on this subject is....i would love to marry my girlfriend. however it is not legal here in missouri. honestly the only reason would be for the benefits of that little piece of paper...otherwise i dont need any piece of paper to tell me i love my girlfriend and want to spend the rest of my life with her. I think maybe next summer we may be planning a commitment ceremony but other than that who knows what the future may bring.



however the one thing i do dislike is the people who judge me because of my sexuality...I have had numerous occasions where someone from a church have come up to me and tell me they can fix me...I'm gay....I'm not broken. or how i will be going to hell because I lay with women... how do you know whats going to happen to me. Your not the one who is gonna judge me.



I'm not saying I believe in God or I don't....I believe there is a higher power up there, and they put me here and gave me the choice to be who I am, so I don't think they will turn me away when the time comes.





Ecko is back! *does happy dance* come to the nuts club topic and spam with us!

Ecko

I have to admit....I'm jealous Leanan...I would love to be in a place where there is no discrimination on race or sexuality or any of that....that would be amazing to me!!

Leanan

There is still discrimination against gays here. Many people don't like gays and don't want to hire them for positions of responsibility. But good news is, discrimination against gays is now officially ILLEGAL in Finland, prohibited by the same laws that prohibit racial discrimination.

So, not long ago, a woman was fired from her position as editor in chief of Lapin Kansa, a regional newspaper. She believed she was fired because she was openly gay, and it seems this was indeed the case. So she sued the newspaper company - and she won the lawsuit.

Also in less happy news, a transsexual man who changed his gender into woman by surgery was a priest for a while, but he quit his position as vicar because the congregation objected to what he was.

So, this country isn't gay paradise yet. But Sweden and Denmark are close to becoming just that.

G0lden

Things do change over time though. Like Xiu I do have gay friends and they do not discuss their intimate lives in front of me because I don't find it appropriate to discuss to begin with. It's the same with my personal intimate life, unless you're a very trusted close friend you know nothing I just simply don't discuss it. One young gay friend brings all of his new boyfriends over to meet us, they are polite and quite reserve. They will discuss many topics with us (including gay rights), but they respect the fact that I am straight and don't care what they do behind close doors. Now as far as Xiu is concerned, he does have the right to his opinions about gay people. If he has gay friends and doesn't want to hear about their personal lives that is his choice. It doesn't make him a bad person, it just makes him a person with his own personal view on how life is for him.

Don't forget there are many cultures out there that are very anti-gay and there are those whose upbringing may reflect a parents view. Simple put don't judge a book by it's cover unless you are prepared to be judged in the same way.

faeriegirl

and the Netherlands is drifting away from paradise again... *cries*

(well, ok, maybe not especially on gay rights... but on immigrants more Unhappy )

WolfMoonSky

So true faeriegirl!! It's getting worse by day!Nuh_uh

Cascade

I don't understand why you have to consider sex when considering gay people.

I don't want to consider how straight people have sex as well, or see it. I'm just not into voyeurism. Just like any other sport, you just gotta do it.

I'm fine with gay people kissing and hugging in public. I don't care. I know some people who I strongly suspect of being gay - all men for some reason. I don't care who they love. They tend to be fun people and I feel very much at ease with them. They never try to stare in your decollete. Although the salesman of my favorite shop is a rather touchy-feely guy (I suspect gay) and he couldn't do that with me if I thought he was straight. So I guess sometimes I discriminate against straight men. Shh

As for the situation here - you know Holland. Some drugs is legal, and of course gay people can marry. That's just us.

Leanan

I think Europe on the whole is becoming biased against immigrants. I don't like this situation but it always happens when there's an economic decline. The people who lose their jobs look for someone to blame, and so they start saying 'the immigrants are taking our jobs because they work for less money'. And in some way it might be true, they do work for less money.

What'd you do, G0lden, if someone posted stuff about gay sex in the sex thread on this forum? Would you complain? It is a sex thread... is discussing sex life online a privilege for straight people only?

Vojira

Quote:


I have to admit....I'm jealous Leanan...I would love to be in a place where there is no discrimination on race or sexuality or any of that....that would be amazing to me!!



Scandinavia tends to be rather 'Huh? We don't care.' about some things. right, Leanan? Or am I on the wrong track?

In Denmark it not illegal to have sex with animal. As long as it's not harmed it's ok.

...Weird.

WolfMoonSky

Guys, please don't fight about this!! Everyone has his or her own opinion. Soon everyone will fight with each other about this and that is not the intention!!

So everyone grouphug!Hug

faeriegirl

Joining the group hug!! *tackle glomps everyone!!!* Hug

For me, discussing sex life is mostly a private thing, gay or straight don't care. No problem with gays hugging/kissing in public, everyone can love whoever they want.

Just disappointing that there's apparently enough people who aren't so open-minded, or tolerant, or whatever you wanna call it...

G0lden

Hardy not. Would I read it? Maybe, maybe not that is still my choice. Would I complain about it? Depends on what is being written to begin with. That is much like saying would you report someone who is telling you what they did to a child. Would you report that, of course you would. But when it comes to a discussion between adults the lines can get blurred some, which is why any tropic that looks like an adult topic is marked as such. I for one do believe that every one that has an opinion should at least be allowed to give their views. If you don't like the opinion then you don't have to agree with it or read it. Same thing on a forum.

Leanan

Quote:




Scandinavia tends to be rather 'Huh? We don't care.' about some things. right, Leanan? Or am I on the wrong track?

In Denmark it not illegal to have sex with animal. As long as it's not harmed it's ok.

...Weird.





Scandinavia has always been liberal in politics. But there are people who do have strong views here, one way or the other. Historically, the conservative religious side has lost most of the arguments (the one against female priests was a huge war that is still going on in remote parts of the church... but yes, most people say 'huh, we don't care' to that one too)



Having sex with an animal, if the animal is not harmed, is legal in some US states, too, so I wouldn't draw any conclusions from that.

Leanan

I'm not joining this grouphug, sorry.

Why are people comparing gays to having sex with animals and having sex with children?

Gay is NOT an illness. It is not a type of perversion that should be prohibited by law. Do you realize how offensive you guys are sounding? Without meaning to, of course.

Leanan

Quote:

G0lden is correct; the single strand of everything I've spoken about untangles to this simple thing; I'm tired of hearing about it on the news, in the papers, on the radio. I have friends that are gay and live together, but they know my mind can get down to the bottom of the deepest possible ditch when it comes to sexual things. Which is why we came to an agrement between myself and my circle of friends out there in reality.

This is how I feel about the rights of everyone; Once you're in America, or a country that has equal rights for all, no need to worry about wanting more rights because of your sexual preferances or the like, to me it is just people that want to get more attention, and thus get on the news and the like. But here's the thing, I am not one that openly slanders one without a good reason to do such a thing. If I wanted to slander the church, I'd only do so with a reason that isn't a paper wall.

Same goes for the homosexual folks. I do not slander them without a viable reason to do so. If I mention anything about them I do so in the best interests of humor and as non offesive as possible.

I look at it this way; (amazingly my older brother does as well and had a hit the floor laughing moment when we both saw the video on youku) Basically anyone that cvan't find the humor of a subject, for the sake of what is left of the sane world, lets just agree to disagree and change topic?


I'm not in America. And Xiu himself has already stated I am not sane. I find him calling me a nuthouse escapee very funny and to the point, which should show I do have a sense of humor, but I don't see the humor in laughing at gay people.

Funny how when I posted about this on Facebook I got a whole different type of reaction. I'm thinking I should start hanging out in the Masque forums more... I think that's where most of the queer people have gone to...

sulken

Scandinavia was, for the most time of it's history, a homogeneous region. One ethnic, one Christian sect, one economic system... It's easy to be liberal (and egalitarian) if every-body is like you! That's no criticism, just my very personal conclusion.
If there are "others", some people get more fundamental, and in the first place it's about defining themselves ("We are this, this and that... Everything beyond shall be punished"). That way, you know who you are and who not (I'm not saying this is good).

Back to topic...

Homosexuality is not the standard sexual orientation. It occurs often, but most people are heterosexual. Plus, in recent years, there was a "homosexual wave" in media. A homosexual man is not depicted as a "normal man", but, in most cases, as a feminine one. "Gay" (in the sense of frolic). It's shown as something weird. And that's the point when some might mention animal-sex (Paedophilia is a terrible crime, but the human relationship to animals is that degenerated, animal-sex is funny-weird, not criminal-weird).

Actually, I, for myself, don't care if someone is gay, lesbian or not. I'm not sorting the people I meet into "potential sexual partners" and "no, this will never be". I'm somewhat annoyed by all this "oh, you're gay, that's such a great thing, let me hug you" on-going. As if some people need to demonstrate how liberal they are.
Ugh, and I'm glad, that one of my gay friends (yeah, it's more than one I know, isn't it cool...) is so manly, he doesn't fit in the manicure, fashion-designer cliché

Leanan

I wasn't saying Scandinavians are better than other people. That'd be a form of racism too. I'm not saying our type of Christianity is better than other types of Christianity or better than other religions. You are right, of course, about what you say on history and the development of ideology.

Of course there are reasons why our laws have evolved as they have. If the 9/11 terrorist attack had happened in Helsinki, we'd have a whole different attitude towards immigrants from Islamic countries, for example.

I'm just stating that we have certain laws here that are different from the laws elsewhere. Homosexuality is no more common in Finland than it is anywhere else, nor has it historically been tolerated more. But if someone wrote 'God hates gays' on a sign and made a demonstration about it here, he'd be breaking laws.

Here, gay rights are somehow discussed in context with women's rights, rather than racial rights. Racial rights have never been an issue.

Maybe it's just because cotton doesn't grow in our climate and linen doesn't require slave labor.

sulken

... I was just saying that's easier to be liberal ans egalitarian if there's nobody around, who is "odd" (in whatever definition odd)

Actually each Scandinavian country became sort of Shangri La for (at least) Germany in recent years. Women's rights, children day-care, a balanced budget, schooling. It's somehow like "when Germany is grown up, it wants to become Sweden/Denmark/Finland". Studying Scandinavian studies is extremely popular, children of wealthier families are likely to be named Lars, Olaf or Finn.

Leanan

If I was German I'd want to be Scandinavian too. It's very hard to be proud of being German - if you try, you get accused of nazi sympathies. I think ever since the DDR and BRD united, people have been looking at Germany as if it was a political timebomb of some kind - at least, I've read a large number of essays from the 70s saying that if Germany ever becomes one nation the world will end in nuclear holocaust. A lot of other people must have read those essays too when they were new and to be taken seriously as a possible future.

The funny thing is, people in Finland want to be American or Japanese. All the best bands sing in English, most of the teenagers watch anime and read manga.

There is no place on this planet where being gay would have always been considered to be normal, except a few primitive tribes in the Borneo jungle and other such locations. At least one of these tribes consists of cannibals, which shows that gays, any more than Scandinavians, are no better type of human being than any other.

sulken

people are people. In every human being is the potential of becoming a Hitler or a Ghandi (who wasn't as holy as we perceive him). Being attracted to someone of your own gender doesn't make you a better person. Nor vice versa. Some serial killers were gay (Bundy), most were hetero. Each individual consists of a number of "layers", which compounds it. There's no single factor constituting one's personality.


Hmm, I can accept my German identity as "this is the country I'm born into, it laid (part of) my cultural background" but I'm definitely no patriotic. Patriotism, in general, give me the creeps. That's an innate thing, you can't help it. But I think it's something good, it keeps me alert. You can have a great life without being patriotic *ramble, ramble*

Leanan

I don't consider myself to be patriotic, but if there was a war, I'd fight on whatever side Finland took. Even if it was against US. By fight I mean contribute to the war effort, because no one sane would ever give weapons to people like me.

I doubt Finland would ever declare war on the US. But who the US declares war on is not up to me at all. I don't have a vote in that matter and the past shows anything is possible. Taking into account that any one person can be a Gandhi, a Hitler, or George W. Bush, whatever you consider that last option to mean, the amount of power the U.S. President has as one person is in my view a lot more dangerous than any number of countries called Germany.

Stormcatcher

I vaguely recall the initial post was about same sex relationships, so I think we've gotten a little off topic...



But while we're still there (off topic) I might as well jab in my opinion in general.

As a German I say: Yes, you can be proud of being German. No prob - why should the focus linger on twelve years of historical terror when there are hundreds of years of culture to remember as well? It may not be a special honor to be born and raised in Germany, but it's not an asset either.

I'm not proud to be Kraut. I cannot feel any pride in something I haven't achieved by myself. If things had happened a little differently after the war I might have been born in the US, Great Britain or Siberia. Or even more likely, not at all.

I had no say in that matter, so why should I feel about it at all?



Germany is still a country of different tribes, the only mutual link being the language, an artificial construct derived from the various dialects. A Bavarian is a Bavarian, a Saxon a Saxon and they cannot be compared to each other. Up here near Hamburg we're emotionally closer to Denmark and England than to the rest of the republic. How patriotic is that? I would never fight for a state but I would defend the place I live in. No matter what country.

I'm not fond of patridiots regardless of origin. A GI once told me he was proud to be American. I wanted to know why and he gave me a long list of US-achievements. At last he contributed democracy as an all-American-invention (that's when I got sour). I asked: "Yeah, such as Sand Creek, Wounded Knee, Hiroshima and My Lai?"

Well, I didn't expect him to laugh.



About gay pride... I regard sex life as a private issue and my general view on sexuality is "nothing against another's will". Wink

Much more liberal than our laws anyway, with the government's will being executed whether you understand it or not.



I just don't mind if people feel stimulated by their own sex, their relatives, their pets or high heels as long as they are not trying to include me in their play.

RichardPini

Leanan, feel better? Wink

Leanan

Democracy? That's like putting a picture of the statue of liberty on a box of Anti-French 'freedom fries'.

'nothing against another's will' is, in general, a good principle to live by. I wish the law of Finland would respect that more. (sad truth is, in this country rape is a crime only if it is violence is used against the victim. as if raping someone wasn't violence in itself.). However, if a 6-year-old wanted to have sex with her father, and her father wanted to have sex with her, I don't think any sane person would approve of this. (according to Freud, some children experience desires such as this. For an adult to approve of such a desire and encourage such behavior would be a crime, in any world I want to imagine). I mention this only because I need an example of why human society needs laws about things like sex. We CAN and we DO want things that are wrong sometimes, no matter how liberal our view of 'wrong' is. We aren't elves, we aren't angels... we can imagine the concept of perversion, and then we wish we hadn't.

Oh, and the reason I bring up pedophilia is apparently I have a 15-year-old admirer on facebook. He thinks I look cute. He also thought I was 19. I hope he'll get over it soon.

Leanan

Quote:


Leanan, feel better? Wink





Still ranting at the air, I'm not sure why anymore. No one is actually attacking me or my opinions... I just feel on the edge.

Stormcatcher

This is gonna be a long night...

I seriously doubt a child would like to have sex with an adult unless he or she would have been raised in an oversexed environment. It's an adult's task to prevent kids from harm and having sex with a child does mean harm at some extent. When a grown up person feels like wanting to have sex with a kid I expect him or (less likely) her to be able to control himself. If he can't or, even worse, won't, I think that he should be removed from the distracting surroundings as there is no known therapy for lust.

But to put young man into jail for having a sexual relationship with his adult sister in mutual consent - that's when I'd call for reason, not the law.

PS: Freud was a nutcase himself. Wink

G0lden

Quote:




Still ranting at the air, I'm not sure why anymore. No one is actually attacking me or my opinions... I just feel on the edge.







Leanan take a deep breathe and relax.

Leanan

Of course Freud was a nutcase! That's why I like him. I don't agree with him but I like nutcases who try to figure out why people are nuts.

Very good point, Stormcatcher, and I have no opinion on the siblings thing - as long as my brother doesn't try any funny moves on me, I have no opinion on whether siblings should be allowed to be in love or not. I'm not among the people grossed out by Luke Skywalker kissing his sister in Star Wars, but I'd be totally grossed out if my brother tried to kiss me. Or any other relative of mine. So I guess I'm not as unbiased on this subject as I'm on the gay subject, I keep thinking 'it's okay I guess but I don't want it to happen to me'.

sulken

there is a reason why people get gross at incest... it's no scientific observation, but most people I met, who have a (relatively) relaxed attitude towards incest are people without a (close), (normal) relationship to a sibling.
In recent years, there was a man sentenced to jail for having sex with his sister (mutually), but they also had several children. All (or most) with disabilities. That's why he was sentenced to jail (they didn't stop with one blind child...)









@Stormcatcher, let's see. in the midsts of the 19th century Germany is founded, because a Prussian chancellor wants to secure the position of his princedom. Some wars happened (Prussian-French 187-something). The whole "military is cool" thing BEFORE WWI. Well, and the time after WWII. I can accept (now, it took me more than 20 years) if a German is proud of is country without my hackles up, but I can't see why s/he is.

Leanan

Oh, of course people shouldn't have children with their own siblings, or mothers, or fathers. I thought that went without saying, as one of the basic facts about humans everyone on this forum knows especially after Richard Pini saw it fit not long ago to point out that elves could have children with their siblings with no such effect.

Cousins marrying is legal somewhere, and I saw on Dr Phil at least in some cases (second cousins? something of that sort) actually causes no discernible higher risk of disability.

Having sex with someone and having children with them are two different acts. If you love your sister and she loves you, you're both of age, and you are a guy, get sterilized (or whatever is the appropriate term for humans). You'll never have children but you can have your sister as far as I'm concerned, I don't see whom it would harm. Of course, if this statement breaks US law I refer to the fact that the terms of service of this forum are still in lorem ipsum as far as I know.

I will cite first, the wastes of Falax; second, the Flesh cape of Miscus; third, the Totness Squalings.

WhiteGhost

I belive in parts of canada [i forget exactly where, and how close the relation ship is allowed] you can marry a cousin. [and i think you can marry an adopted sibling too, since it wouldnt be a blood-relative]

I know, im coming to the party late, as usual XD
Some of my friends are gay and theyre some of the nicest folks. They know i'm straight but a couple have mentioned if I ever changed my mind *nudge nudge* and while I never really considered taking them up on that, I did consider it quite the complement. Smile
At the same time I figure the old saying is right "there are some things a gentleman does not discuss in public" -What people do in the privacy of their homes and bedrooms is none of my concern and frankly I dont want to know. I dont discuss private issues with people, I consider it impolite. [someone brings it up im not gonna flip out at them or something -ive seen people do that, its tedious- but its not my business. I'll go get another cuppa joe and come back when they start talking about something else. unless its politics or religion *wink*]

I do confess Ive always been a little curious- how does one do it? guy/guy i can see but girls? I would think it terribly awkward. [please, dont enlighten me, I'm probably happier not knowing.] Then again I have the suspicion Im a bit of a prude. so. *shrug* XD

mmmI shouldn't post things at 3 am, I ramble all over.

WhiteGhost

Pfft lol. i forgot to add this part. I must be half asleep!
Romans. Being gay was "the thing" in the Roman glory days. history books are full of it. [was that a "heyday" ? im not sure but it was more acceptable then any other time I can think of in recorded human history -the ancient greeks come close- it was highly fashionable. Smile]

As for incest, the ancient egyptians considered it right and proper to marry between siblings [and cousins and aunts and...], particularly in the Pharoh's direct line. [and archeoloists are happy to point out the many and varied birth defects they've been finding in royal mummies. just look at poor Tut!]

Vojira

Quote:


Pfft lol. i forgot to add this part. I must be half asleep!

Romans. Being gay was "the thing" in the Roman glory days.





I think the Spartan warriors/army were on that wave. Spartan males would be removed from their mothers at an young age, and in some cases grew up only surrounded by other men. I heard one story about one solider/man who had never in his life seen a woman until the day he got married to one.

From what I remember, they got inside a bedroom and the woman started to removed her and upon seer her form, the man froze up, stared at her and ran out the room screaming for his commander/leader.

Leanan

The reason I don't consider ancient Rome to have been a gay-friendly community... let's just say, since some things gentlemen don't discuss, a true Roman had to be always 'on top'. Nudge nudge wink wink I think you know what I mean by this description of position, without me going into graphic detail about how sometimes 'on top' could be on the bottom as far as gravity is considered. Google it or ask your gay friends if you need more info on gay Romans.

And again without me going into graphic detail, some gays would rather not let their nationality limit the choice of positions by half.

It's true, it was rumored of Julius Caesar he wasn't always 'on top', and that didn't end his career... and Nero committed an even worse sin, by becoming an actor on stage while being Emperor...

Cascade

You can go a long time discussing things that happened in history. In Greece there was a time that homosexual pedophilia was absolutely the thing. That's why it's sometimes suggested that Achilles and Patrocles in the Troy war had such relationship (Achilles being only 15 at the start of the war).

And of course nowadays same sex sex is fairly standard in all male environments like prisons and the army. Anyone bisexual goes that way if there's nothing else.

Oh, well, since animals have lasting homosexual relations on occasion (and not only because there's nothing better - then make it all animals), we can not possible claim that it is unnatural.

Leanan

I love discussing things that happened in history. Yay

I thought Patrocles was younger than Achilles? I don't see how two kids having sex with each other would count as pedophilia.

Yes, I knew the Greeks praised boy love... and yes, this boy love was a concept we'd consider pedophilia of the most twisted and criminal kind.

I'm not even attempting to defend the Greeks. I do not think humanity has even known a golden age or a Shangri La where all was perfect. All societies have the basic fault of consisting of human beings and all human beings have the basic fault of not being perfect.

I think I'd have felt at home if I'd have been born a man in the Renaissance period Europe. People really believed in knowledge in those times. Of course, they didn't have much knowledge to go around compared to us... but they took it seriously. To us it is just information. Why bother knowing things when wikipedia can know them for you. Cunning tool for solving arguments very quickly. Lancrastian army knife, it has all you ever needed.

sulken

I wouldn't go so far as to state that Greece was a gay-society. A today's gay couple is a pair of "same-level" men. In Greece it was mentor-student relationship. One was the superior, the elder, the active; the other was the minor, the younger, the passive. It's the same un-equal relationship as then's wife-husband relationship. While the boys had the chance to get one the other side.

As for Cesar, I bet that was a rumor, spread by his adversaries. Sounds like one.

Sofia

Sorry to interrupt the fascinating history lessons (I love that sort of stuff!) but reading through this topic and some other threads I came to think of a few questions regarding people's thoughts on "gays":

1. A lot of people's problems with homosexuals seem to stem from a case of "too much information" about their personal lives. How common is this exactly? I have close friends of all genders and sexualities and my personal experience is that the people who're most outspoken about details regarding their private lives are straight women - but that could just be my friends.

2. What exactly counts as "too much information" really? (No I'm not looking for exact details, just a general idea). Are the criteria for gay/straight "too much info" the same? In my experience not-straight relationships tend to get more censure when it comes to public displays of affection (we're talking kissing here, possibly making out), which I of course think is unfair. Why should some of us have to stop kissing in public, while others can?
And yes I'm asking for personal opinions - I'm already quite aware of heterosexuals being the majority, as well as most of us having been raised in a hetero-normative culture.

3. I get that people get tired of gay rights talk - just like the get tired of women's rights or immigrants' rights or whatever other issue there is that doesn't directly influence their daily lives except for stirring up trouble and nagging - I do.
But have you tried viewing the situation from the other side of the fence? It can be so bloody annoying when people assume you're straight - even if it is a statistically probable guess - especially in "official" situations like doctor's appointments or while just watching TV-shows (just like the general lack of women as anything but love interests can get on my nerves, but that's another rant). To have to check twice over your shoulder before mentioning your friend's boyfriend to anyone, so no one from his family overhears and thus might end up disowning him.
Tens of thousands of tiny annoying things that build up until you have to blow off some steam - in an internet forum for example Wink

So yeah, "nagging" about gay rights and such might get annoying and for that I do apologize, but I would say we have good reasons to. I've personally never felt the need to hide my sexuality, but I have friends who're terrified that their parents will find out they're not straight and while such things are going on I think nagging is the way to go ('cause leaving things be is a sure fire way for them to keep on being sucky - just like with equal rights for all humans of all kinds).

Okay, so that was just me being curious and ranty. If anyone feels like answering that'd be great, otherwise the current history discussion is very interesting!

Stormcatcher

Well, let's see...

I don't think there's too much information on gay life in general. At least not in this country... Too many people still think of homosexuality as a curable disease or character flaw thus driving their own kids to keep their mates hidden.
Something I've never understood. Lack of reason is a common disease...

I don't even remember if the couple I recently saw kissing at the main station were homo or hetero, I just found the way they plunged their tongues into each others throats revolting. I can't even look for a magazine at a store without getting printed boobs and bottoms thrust into my face and the ads at late night TV are even more bothersome.
And that's all hetero-stuff! Wink

@ catfish: Can't help you with that military thing - has there ever been a country in Europe not being obsessed with warfare or defense at any time?
I was rather thinking of the input of Gutenberg, Melanchthon, Kant, Liebig, Semmelweis, Koch, von Behring, Nietzsche, Siemens, Röntgen, Berliner and Gauss to name but a few...

G0lden

I live in California need I say more. We hear about gay rights on a regular basis and it gets tiring.

sulken

Stormcatcher, since Hamburg and Berlin are states, 1/4 of Germany's state-gouvernors are openly gay. Our foreign secretary is. There are several CSD's (Gay Pride Parades) each year in several German cities, two of them are Europe's largest and most prominent. Of corse, homosexuality is not overall-accepted anywhere, but I wouldn't state it's a severe problem to be one in Germany. There are still parents, who wouldn't believe their child, if it tells it was raped by a priest but most would.

I can understand Golden, when she's annoyed of a topic, which is not her cause, if it's apparently "everywhere in the news". I guess it's a bit like religion in the U.S. I observed that American atheists are much more agressive and hostile when it comes to religion (especially Christianity) but religion is also much more present in the U.S. than in the relatively secular Europe.

Well, I'm no fan of "excessive kissing" in public either. It doesn't have anything to do with the gender of the couple but with my understanding of manners. You shouldn't stare at private things, if there's someone kissing (>doing something private), look away. I'm forced to look "in all directions but that one". That's about normal, good-bye kissing but "I'm giving you a lung-endoscopy"...

Leanan

Quote:


I live in California need I say more. We hear about gay rights on a regular basis and it gets tiring.





Who asked you to post here? Who told you you have to read this topic? If you don't want to hear about a subject, why insist on reading about it online and then complaining you don't want to hear about it?



If someone made a topic in this forum called "Twilight - Edward Cullen is so hot!" I certainly wouldn't read that topic. I wouldn't go there and tell the people posting why I'm tired of hearing about Twilight. I wouldn't say 'I am a regular on Gaia online and a lot of my friends there always talk about Twilight, I'm tired of talking about Twilight'. If people want to discuss Twilight, they can do it, and I am glad if they make a separate topic for it rather than spamming about it in other topics. Instead, I'd go to topics that are about things I'm interested in and enjoy talking about. I'd bump the Pratchett topic with a picture of Nanny Ogg's cat. I'd find some more cat macros that mention elves. I'd see if anyone wants to discuss Tolkien's books. I'd go to the actual ElfQuest-themed forums and post some more thoughts on soulnames and wavedancers.



Are you, G0lden, objecting to the actual fact that I made a topic titled Gay rights? I posted it in the appropriate subforum. I mentioned what it is about in the subject line. If you do not want to discuss a subject, why are you discussing it?



I do not intend to offend. I'm just wondering what's your motive here. Defending Xiu? I asked for permission to quote him, and he gave me his permission. I don't think he has a problem with me or this topic, he keeps bringing virtual flowers to my Nuts Club topic and being generally a cool friend.

RedheadEmber

Well... I'm defiantly for homosexual marriage. I basically feel that if two guys, or to girls, love each other they should have the same rights to get married as a guy and a girl loving each other.
But that being said I can understand why some of you people are a bit tired of hearing about it all the time. (Mostly because, well, it shouldn't be such a big deal; just something perfectly natural.)

Leanan

I can understand why people would be tired of hearing about a subject, I don't understand why they'd then go on and post in forum topics about that subject only to say they don't want to hear about it. That's like going to an Iron Maiden concert to tell people heavy metal sucks. Or like trolling Twilight forums. It just makes no sense to me. I know a lot of things people do online don't make sense, my current gaia avatar has jellyfish on it.

I know I posted in the subject line 'your opinion please'. I know please is a magic word but I wasn't aware posting 'please' in a subject line would perform some form of mindtrick on people forcing them to read and post against their will.

I wanted opinions on gay rights, not opinions on why California sucks. Thank you for that, but if I wanted opinions on why California sucks I could just go and ask people in New York.

If someone has an argument AGAINST gay rights, rather than against the media or individual US States, I'd love to hear it and argue it out. On the subject of media and general consciousness, I refer people to Sofia's thoughtful and well-mannered post.

And on the subject of Caesar - we'll never know. As to the Greeks and Romans in general, yes, they thought gay sex was about power. I think the view on sex in general in that era was that it is a tool of domination - male over female, master over pupil, Roman over slave.

lunakat

Actually... i'd like to respond to Golden. It's something a lot of people say- "I'm tired of hearing about it." But the basic truth is- if you are gay, you have to hear slurs about it, hear people talk trash about you (not even knowing they are doing it) and listen to people talk about how tired they are of having to listen to people like you ask for the same things they have... and you have to do that every day of your life from moment you realized you were gay.. which usually adolescence (12 or 13 yrs old) the same point at which straight boys and girls discover each other.

Now, i haven't been around a lot lately- because for a while I was really sick, and then just really busy... so some of you might not remember me too well. But Golden and I did overlap for a while- so I'm sure she knows who I am. What she probably doesn't know is that I'm bisexual, and I was in a homosexual relationship with someone I loved very much for several years. It was a very healthy and affirming relationship for me- and I wouldn't trade it for the world.

But.. when it happened, I became acutely aware of prejudice. I had to listen to my mother describe in detail what a 'pervert' I was. Every time someone asked me about my personal life, I had to weigh whether or not I wanted to tell them about that. I kept it a secret at two places of employment, because I wasn't certain how it would be received, and I wasn't ready to be rejected and looked down on by my coworkers... all of whom talked casually about what they did with their boyfriends, girlfriends, husbands or wives over the weekend- because that's normal conversation.

We walked down the street together and we weren't sure in certain areas if we could hold hands without it maybe offending someone... meanwhile, there seemed to be nothing wrong with straight couples kissing in public. And then, of course, there are all the public debates about whether or not your kind is polluting the straight population.

So, in response, I just say- get used to it. No "homosexual agenda" is being shoved down anyone's throat. Gay people just want to live normal, healthy and relaxed lives in which they can have normal conversations at work without fear of repercussion, can have their families invited their spouses to thanksgiving dinner without sneering, be affection with each other in a normal way without worrying that because you don't live in a major city someone might deface your property.. and not worry about having your coworkers, possibly boss, dislike you because of your primary relationship... oh yes, and if you have children- know they will be walking into a school environment that doesn't allow them to be ostracized and picked on because who you are. A school environment that teacher other kids to accept them.

Really- that's not unreasonable. And it's really important.

The truth is- from day you are born, you are indoctrinated to be straight. The only "agenda" is heterosexual, if anything. You are probably born to straight parents, you see movie after move- tv show after tv show depicting straight couples, society mocks you if you aren't. But if you aren't... you just can't help it.

So, if people like Golden don't want to hear about it- I say tough. Because Gay people have to deal with it every day of their lives from childhood on up.

If you don't want to hear about it- stop treating gay people like they have the plague, or like they are some sort of threat or burden to you. Treat them like everyone else- give them the same rights and protections under the law- and I guarantee you won't hear about it anymore.

lunakat

Also- ditto what Sophia said.

Ecko

im lost on how we went from gay rights to pedophilia???

G0lden

Luna I know who you are and I have never had any problems with who you are. I just wrote the opinion of most people that I know that happen to be both gay and straight.

Cascade

Sofia asked what too much information is for me. Well, I have a fairly high annoyance level. Don't discuss the specifics of your sexlife with me, whether you are gay or straight. I don't need to know how long you take, and which positions you use.

Unless you dreamt of doing it on your head. We are still waiting for the report that it was attempted in real life (>15 years after the dream). Big_laugh

Ecko

Quote:


So, in response, I just say- get used to it. No "homosexual agenda" is being shoved down anyone's throat. Gay people just want to live normal, healthy and relaxed lives in which they can have normal conversations at work without fear of repercussion, can have their families invited their spouses to thanksgiving dinner without sneering, be affection with each other in a normal way without worrying that because you don't live in a major city someone might deface your property.. and not worry about having your coworkers, possibly boss, dislike you because of your primary relationship... oh yes, and if you have children- know they will be walking into a school environment that doesn't allow them to be ostracized and picked on because who you are. A school environment that teacher other kids to accept them.



Really- that's not unreasonable. And it's really important.



The truth is- from day you are born, you are indoctrinated to be straight. The only "agenda" is heterosexual, if anything. You are probably born to straight parents, you see movie after move- tv show after tv show depicting straight couples, society mocks you if you aren't. But if you aren't... you just can't help it.



So, if people like Golden don't want to hear about it- I say tough. Because Gay people have to deal with it every day of their lives from childhood on up.



If you don't want to hear about it- stop treating gay people like they have the plague, or like they are some sort of threat or burden to you. Treat them like everyone else- give them the same rights and protections under the law- and I guarantee you won't hear about it anymore.





thank you!!! the way you worded that is beautiful!!!

sulken

Quote:


im lost on how we went from gay rights to pedophilia???





Are you thinking of my post?

I just replied to Stormcatcher (she said, that there are still people, in Germany, who think homosexuality is a disease). What I wanted to say is, that if it was so, we wouldn't have two gay state-governors (one of them of the conservative party!) and a gay foreign secretary.

Recently there are a lot of cases of child-abusing by Catholic priests coming to light (most of them happened in the 60's, 70's). The parents often didn't believe their children, when they told them what happened.

What I wanted to say is: today things changed. Parents would rather believe their children and most people don't think homosexuality is a disease. Otherwise they wouldn't vote for homosexual candidates. Sorry, but are there any state-governors in the U.S.?

Ecko

yeah each state here has a govenor...sorry for the confusion...i have heard lots of people who compare pedophila to homosexuality and i think that is disgusting. i myself have been a victim of abuse and in no way has that affected my sexuality. i'm just irritated when people say....oh you were abused that's why your gay!!!

sorry just a small rant...no offense to anyone and thanks catfish for clearing that up for me!!

Sofia

Yay lunakat, welcome back! I agree with all you said and you have my sympathy for what you had to go through.

That said many other very interesting posts have been written since I last posted! I thank all those of you who satisfied my curiosity Smile

Now for more ranting:


To me, a lot of the negative comments on gays that aren't "outright homophobic" (ie. "not being straight is wrong!" etc.) seem to stem from a "not my problem"-view. Just like perfectly decent men can get quite unthoughtful when it comes to their comments on women's rights, nice straight people can do just the same thing when it comes to gay/bi/asexual rights.

I think there'd be less such comments on this issue if the problems that gay people face were more extreme - if people got executed for it (which they still are in some countries) or well, weren't allowed to vote, instead of "just" being bullied in school or being disowned by their family.

It reminds me of this one comment a guy I know once made when me and a friend were discussing women's rights. He just interrupted us with this line:
"Oh can't you shut up about that stuff for once! We're almost equal now, when will you be satisfied?!"

Yeah, I think that speaks for itself.

Still, I understand the sentiment behind his words, even though they were very clumsily chosen. Disagreements are never fun and when they're about something you don't personally have to deal with or don't find to be that big of a problem, people generally prefer to ignore the whole issue.

If you're not faced by a problem daily actively (like being called a "pervert" by your family or feeling uncomfortable every time relationships are mentioned since you're worried about the consequences if you'd talk openly about yours) it will seem like less of a problem over all when you're faced with it passively, like with information about gay marriage.

But just because something isn't a problem to you (and there are of course gay/bi/asexual people who find gay rights talk to be overblown as well, not just straight people; but again, statistics) "getting tried of hearing about it" feels like a bad excuse to me personally.

I think gay marriage would work well as an example, as that seems to be a part of gay rights people are especially sick of. I'm an atheist so I've never considered getting married in a church - it's never been important to me personally. As soon as people of the same gender were allowed to marry outside the church I was pretty much set.

That said I'm still for gay marriage and won't tell anyone to stop talking about it, no more than I would tell people to stop "whining" about immigrants losing their jobs for no other reason than them not being born in the country they now live in.

Just because I might feel a little bored with it all, that's nowhere near the level of discomfort of someone who can't get married to the one they love or who can't get a job feels - I'm prepared to put up with it because of that.

I know it's very repetitive, but holding firm to your beliefs is how change happens! For example, how do you think women got the right to vote or people of different "races" got to marry each other? They protested, a lot.

Sure, being too forward and "whiny" might not do too much good as G0lden pointed out, but doing nothing or "toning things down" could have even worse results - like the status quo remaining, or even going backwards.

We're all influenced by the culture we grew up in, our families, friends, etc. Thus the definition of "the gay rights debate" are obviously very different. G0lden, being from Califorina, has one view of things, while I, who am from Sweden, has another. I think part of the "argument" about gay rights here is based in the fact that we don't really have the same frame of reference either.

So, again, questions: What is gay rights to you? What do people talk about, when they talk about gay rights where you come from? And how often is it talked about? Where (in school/media/at home)?

Trollbabe

I still want to know, if gay marriage is legalized, then why continue to discriminate against plural marriage?

Also, why can I simply choose NOT to support gay marriage, without being considered a soulless bigot? Do people really fall neatly into such categories?

Sofia

Quote:
I still want to know, if gay marriage is legalized, then why continue to discriminate against plural marriage?
Good question! I personally have nothing against plural marriage of any kind (the consenual ones between adults that is, just to specify).

Maybe we as humans just are a bit slow. Today Sex Ed in most schools in Sweden include basic knowledge of both heterosexual and homosexual realtionships, but bisexuals are rarely mentioned, transexuals are barely thought of and heavens help you if you're polyamorus or asexual.

Quote:
Also, why can I simply choose NOT to support gay marriage, without being considered a soulless bigot? Do people really fall neatly into such categories?
And another good point! I really should have said "I support the debate about gay marriage" (clumsy of me, I apologize!) - both sides of a debate really should be heard, as long as everyone is being civil to each other.

The way the system works here in Sweden (as far as I know) is that any priest can refuse to marry a gay couple, should they feel their religion doesn't support such a marriage. It's then the church's responsibility to provide another priest.

I find this to be a good system. There was obviously a majority of priests who were okay with marrying gay couples (since they voted about it in the church) while those who don't feel it's a good idea don't have to get involved.

Uhm, did you mean "how can I simply, etc"? Where you asking for suggestions/opinions?

Sofia

Double post I know – I really should wait for my next turn! - but since I was the other player in the “Palace Quest Holt” who wanted to make a female elf with a female lovemate and thus unknowingly laid the base for this “debate” I thought I'd add my two cents about that as well.

First I'd like to say I have nothing against Xiu. I don't hate him, I don't dislike him – heck I barely even know him! I am going to leave his Holt – though I'm sticking around 'till Icemoon gets back from a vacation since I promised her a map – but that's just because I feel we'd get in the way of each others' fun, nothing more.

How would we do that? Well this is basically what happened, which I hope explains at least my actions:

The “Palace Quest Holt” is a roleplaying group that had three elf tribes:
One Go-Back (was run by Leanan, has now moved to its own Holt)
One Glider (is run by Icemoon)
One Plainscatrider (is run by Xiu).

Leanan and I were the first other than Xiu to decide to make Plainscatrider-elves (from here on referred to as “PCRs” since it's such a long word). I chose to make mine female since I felt I was playing far too few female characters.

I was a little out of ideas so I asked if anyone wanted an enemy/friend/mother/daughter/love interest for their PCR-elf and Leanan asked if I wanted to play a pair of lovemates. She hadn't decided the gender of her elf and didn't really care, so she asked me to decide. I suggested that both of the elves be female and she agreed.

That was it. No one else made any comments and we started discussing tons of other stuff that had to do with the Holt – other elves, the environment, etc.

So there wasn't really an issue until I asked Xiu a few questions about PCR culture, since they were so very different from canon elves. For one thing they have five fingers and another thing is that they don't lifemate – they get married.

Since my and Leanan's elves weren't married one of my questions had to do with what we should call them – were they engaged, were they “just lovers”, was there some taboo against being together without being married, how did people get married, etc.

As part of the reply to my questions Xiu said this:

Quote:
Lifemates and m,arrying though are pretty much the same thing, personally I neverreally was one for tfemale andfemale together or the malespaired off together, unless they're in love with two different guys it'll work good to me, but the lifemating is for life, no soulnames given, as to how casual and normal it would be.


I didn't quite understand what the gender of our elves had to do with anything. Maybe Xiu included that comment in his reply because I referred to my elf and Leanan's as the “female lovemates” when I asked the questions about romantic PCR-relationships – which I only did to personally keep track of which elves I was asking questions about; it had been a while since we'd talked about them in particular, they had no names and I have a ton of Elfquest-based roleplaying characters in several different Holts, so in the beginning I tend to mix up the new ones if I don't leave myself little hints – but I don't know for sure.

Anyways, his answer confused me on several other points as well, so I asked some follow-up questions. One of the follow-up questions was what views PCR-elves and the humans they lived close to (as in traded and occasionally shared living quarters with) had on same-sex couples, since I assumed they were different from that of canon elves, as Xiu had brought it up. I also said I didn't mind his opinion on same-sex couples, as long as he didn't ban same-sex couples in the Holt (him being the head admin and all).

Xiu replied to all of my questions – his reply to my questions about PCR-elves is the quote in the first post of this thread (I'll repost it here so you won't have to click back to find it):

Quote:
?) and yeah, same sex relationships aren't exactly my thing, (its bad enough I have to listen all of the "news" about them on the radios and on TV and the like), so yeah, if we can help it and try our best ot play it right, mayhaps there's a chance they can thrive here, (but I'm unsdure of how the sactual cats would take it..... (hehe)) I used that line mostly to keep from going same sex chatting talk, like I said i'm not exsactly a fan of al lthe crap on the news and in the papers and stuff about how gay and lexiban couples are being denied their rights and the like, its (personally) very stupid stuff to have on the news and also very gross to even try and think over too.


Now, it so happened that the three other active players (me being one of them) at that moment were women who'd all dated other women at some point in their lives. In short, pretty awkward (and in hindsight, somewhat hilarious – the situation that is).

Thing is, none of us really minded the whole “PCR-elves are against same-sex couples”, since they were already quite different from canon Elfquest, what with the five fingers and marriage and whatnot. No, the problem we had with his comments was that he was bringing his opinions about real life same-sex couples into our Holt-planning-discussion and in a fairly rude way at that.

To change the point of view a little, imagine if we were talking about, I don't know, elderly couples. Say you don't really like to picture elderly people making out: would it be good manners to call “talk about relationships between elderly people” very gross, just because it lead you to imagine things that you found unpleasant?

Didn't think so.

Basically it wasn't so much what he said as how he said it. So we pointed out that we found his comments to be offensive and Xiu said they were just his personal thoughts on the real life topic and that he hadn't meant to insult anyone.

Still the situation remained awkward, especially as Xiu kept repeating the vague instructions that as long as Leanan and I played the couple “rightly” things would go fine. I personally found this to be the most confusing of his comments on the subject, as I had (and still don't have) a clue as to what “rightly” means in this context (Xiu later mentioned that he “hadn't seen any stories with that in there, so he was unsure of how it could work in written form ”, but as I can't imagine what possible difference there could be to writing a straight couple – other than the couple being two people of the same sex obviously - this left me no less confused).

We already had general rules for romantic relationships (ie. keep things PG-13 at the most) that Leanan had come up with so I assume it couldn't be that he worried we would be too explicit. The conclusion I drew (don't know if it's the correct one though!) is that there would be special rules for “gay” couples, as there had been no mention of playing the Holt's already existing male/female “rightly”, which didn't sit well with me.

Since Xiu obviously was very tired of the “talk about gays” and wanted to avoid it (though funnily enough he was the one who started making comments about real life same-sex couples), I decided after some thought to not join the PCR-elves with my elf, for both his and my sake.

See, as Xiu had decided to make the PCR-elves not like female/female and male/male pairings and I would be playing a part of a female/female couple in that tribe, the discussion of “gay rights” was bound to come up sooner or later, at least in game. Since Xiu wouldn't be comfortable with that I decided to leave well enough alone and go join the part of the Holt Leanan transported to another forum, so we wouldn't bother each other.

So yeah, just wanted to attempt to get that straightened out. If anyone who was involved in the discussion feels I misunderstood something, left something out or remembered/retold something wrong, please tell me!

Stormcatcher

Quote:


So, again, questions: What is gay rights to you? What do people talk about, when they talk about gay rights where you come from? And how often is it talked about? Where (in school/media/at home)?





To me, gay rights mean more than gay parades, gay clubs or the two largest cities being governed by gay politicians (why not Cologne, being the gay capital of Germany? Tell you what: It's catholic...),

As long as people are beaten up for "looking queer" (what keeps happening, not just in the east of Germany) we are still far away from true emancipation. If one of my cousins stated openly he was gay, he'd most likely be disowned with all family bridges burning.

But that's the "conservative" part of my family. The rest would joke about it...

Gay culture is not really spread over the media. We got some gay magazines (no more than in the 80s) but to find a gay bar at a town you'll have to do some research first...

It's much like carnival: They get their festivals to let off some steam so they shut up for the rest of the year.



But all this pales into insignificance if you think about the discrimination of transgender and particularly intergender people. I could write an essay about that!

WhiteGhost

Um. what is this polyamourous, intergender or asexual? Never have I heard these terms. [okay ive heard of asexual, but always in regard to, um. Plants. Is polyamouous like the frogs or sea slugs that can change sexes when needed?]

*Grins* I find there are far too many "human rights" that arent rights at all. I'm all for removing some, rather then adding more. [but thats a terribly un PC attitude which gets me yelled at if i menton it. I hold many such thoughts and am a very unpc person, which makes me very happy.]

i find the "switch out the priest" method quite refreshing. It takes great compassion and great sacrifice to join holy orders [pick a religion!] and I think it must be terribly discomfiting to be the priest asked to perform a ceremony that goes against the basic tenets of the religion you swore uphold and suport. [and i know there are some people that would be appalled a church would allow that, and not have the "offending" priest that sticks to his religious views sacked for it.]

Luna! Totally offtopic but thats a Great Ikon!! :D Good to see you!

And...
Um...
Blast. Train of tought de-railed, hundreds killed. Will come back if I remember what I was going to say. XD

lunakat

Quote:

Luna I know who you are and I have never had any problems with who you are.


awesome! i like you too!
Quote:
I just wrote the opinion of most people that I know that happen to be both gay and straight.

yes, and I responded to it! And I believe I offered a really solid rebuttal- don't you agree?

(hi y'all! i thoroughly missed u guys!)

lunakat

Quote:


Um. what is this polyamourous, intergender or asexual?


polyamourous- you like making nookie with lotsa people. (think- skywise.)

intergender- no idea. anybody got a clue?

asexual- you don't like making nookie with anyone! (think- door.)



Quote:
I think it must be terribly discomfiting to be the priest asked to perform a ceremony that goes against the basic tenets of the religion you swore uphold and suport. [and i know there are some people that would be appalled a church would allow that, and not have the "offending" priest that sticks to his religious views sacked for it.]


I don't this ever really happens. I mean- I've never heard of a priest being 'sacked' for those reasons. If you have, please enlighten me!



Quote:
Luna! Totally offtopic but thats a Great Ikon!! :D Good to see you!



Thanks! I'm also 'team emmet!'

G0lden

About time you got back here. Took you long enough Luna.

sulken

Quote:


I don't this ever really happens. I mean- I've never heard of a priest being 'sacked' for those reasons. If you have, please enlighten me!





a new bill was passed the House of Lords in the UK



http://http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/gay-weddings-to-be-allowed-in-church-1915467.html



Afterwards, I read some very interesting speculations about it. Can priests now be forced to marry a homosexual couple? Can you defrock a priest who acted against your church's dogma?





I think there was also something about a rebellious Catholic in Northern Ireland (he is openly gay and lives with his boyfriend in his rectory). He also performed gay marriages, or at least he wanted to. I don't know how the story ended.

WhiteGhost

I vaguely recall an Anglican bishop who admitted he was gay in the early 2000's[?] that made the news and the lutheran church choir my folks sang with was absolutely shocked, and disqusted that the church would allow anyone gay to be a priest [let alone- gasp!- a bishop] and they [basicly] shouted me down over coffee when i piped up with something about how he must have been brave to come out and say it. I found their reacton quite strange- but i daresay- i am terrrible at reading people. This was in canada, and the article stemmed from some other country.
[though being gay and belonging to the clergy of a religion that belives you'll burn in hell for sodomy, do not pass go[it is sodomy in the bible, right? i forget]" must be terribly awkward to begin with, if - as you say- they know when theyre like kids. let alone doing it[the priesthood] for years, perhaps decades before actually admitting to being gay?]

mmmgoogle is no help as it spits out random blurbs about different christian sects, sodomy with alter boys and crazy bible thumpers on youtube. *facepalm*
though from the sound of it this book might be about him? http://www.rosemarybailey.com/?page_id=445 sounds like an interestng read, nonetheless.

Baka

Lunakat, thank you for your great post. I have been lurking in this thread, knowing what to say but not how -- and there you are Smile

I'd like to add something, though, partly in defense of Xiu's and G0lden's points of view:

As with all things, there's a regional difference thing going on. I'm Dutch, and except for some strictly religious groups (of all major faiths), most of us cheeseheads are okay with gay or bi people, or at least tolerate them.

Thus, I don't know how the Californian situation is. I take it that discriminiation and prejudice against gays is harsher at your place than it is here in northern Europe. I can also fully imagine that there's people around using the discrimination of gays as an excuse to make a ruckus or, at least, keep on screaming for attention - melodramatically. The press is only all too eager to service these people and inflate their stories because, c'mon, it's drama!

It's people like these that get even on my nerves -- and I'm on their side of the fence. It seems that many people are prone to overreact and go emo over even the slightest (perceived?) discrimination or offense. People like that make me go 'get a grip'. If I'm not mistaken, this is part of G0lden's point.

This goes not just for gays, but for any group. I don't think I need to give any examples of incidents that started out as innocent, honest mistakes and had international repercussions because one party felt heavily offended. Repercussions that could have been prevented if the 'offended' party had just tried to put themselves in the other's shoes.

Thanks, Leanan, for stirring this up! I think this an interesting subject and it's good to read all your opinions. Just, please, keep your cool, take a few breaths and discuss as the adults we are Smile

We're all different and we need to learn and live with that. Isn't that wat the elves did?

Can I join Faeriegirl's grouphug? Wink

ps.: I don't understand all this Germany thing. I think Germany is a great country, the strongest economy by far in the region, and a very healthy society. If I had to choose a new nationality now, it'd be German!
pps.: Maybe we should make a new thread for this tangent?

Leanan

According to wikipedia:

Genderqueer (GQ) and intergender are catch-all terms for gender identities other than man and woman. People who identify as genderqueer may think of themselves as being both man and woman, as being neither man nor woman, or as falling completely outside the gender binary. They may express a combination of masculinity and femininity, one or the other, or neither. Genderqueers may have any sexuality/sexual identity, any physical sex, and may or may not identify as trans.

--

I's say I'm a woman now but I have felt intergender feelings in the past. I haven't identified with trans, mainly I've just felt an overwhelming desire to confuse people about my true gender to show them, basically, that gender is a matter of the mind as well as the body. Confusing people over the internet is very easy, all I need to do is pick the 'male' option when a website asks for gender. This usually gets me spam about fake viagra, also it gets me female internet stalkers. Spam about viagra is amusing in some contexts, and female internet stalkers have better grammar than male ones. For me, being intergender is a state of mind I adopt sometimes, rather than a way I'd really describe myself. It unnerves my boyfriend seriously. But he already knew I am weird.

Baka

Quote:
...

This usually gets me spam about fake viagra, also it gets me female internet stalkers. Spam about viagra is amusing in some contexts, and female internet stalkers have better grammar than male ones.




Lol! :D Then you haven't even read some gay male stalkers' grammar. Is horrible. *shivers*

Sofia

Interesting points Baka. As I said, I have nothing personally against anyone on this forum and honestly don't think any comments that have been made so far have been outright homophobic.

Homophobia to me is when someone thinks of none-straight people as "unnatural" and that they either can be "cured" or that they should be punished for who they are. Just saying that you're tired of the debated about said issue isn't homophobic, that's just being bored with something.

However, how you say something is very important to how people will react to you. It's just the basics of being polite.

To use a less touchy subject as an example, imagine you end up discussing gardening with someone who has that has her main hobby. You, in this example, find gardening to be tedious and have just the day before been bored to tears with a lecture about it from your grandma.

Now, you could always change the subject or explain to this person that talks about gardening bore you and they will most likely just shrug and say okay. But how you explain your boredom is important. Should you, for example, refer to gardening as "crap", the person you're talking to will most likely be offended, even if you didn't mean to insult her or her hobby.

So, choice of words are always important, especially over the internet where sarcasm and jokes are a little harder to notice.

Still I'm not angry or upset, just surprised and curious - I do get that everyone have very different backgrounds and are less used to some things and more tired of some things. I'm sure there are several debates on this forum that I rather not join for the simple fact that they bore me; I just haven't run across any of them now. I guess I just wasn't expecting this to be an issue of any kind a roleplaying game based on a comic about fairly "free spirited" elves and was therefore not prepared for what happened.

I honestly don't know how our "Holt making discussion" ended up on the subject of gay rights. I certainly had no intention to lead it there since it wasn't relevant to what we were doing - ie. having fun and making a Holt.

Actually, the worst thing that could happen to me regarding this subject is to be accused for "stirring up a debate about gay rights" just because I've causally mentioned something that's not straight (and I don't feel I have been accused of that anywhere on this site, but it does happen frequently in real life so I thought it worth mentioning).

As Baka mentioned there are more than a few people who use issues like gay rights to call attention to themselves and trust me they annoy me too. Really, really annoy me!

Basically they're the ones that cause people in general to always assume that any statement or act that somehow involves the alternative sexualities have some form of "agenda" behind it, which really screws things up for the rest of us.

It's like...when you don't drink and still go out partying. If someone then offers you a drink it's only natural to explain that you don't want it on the basis that you don't drink alcohol at all.

Most people are perfectly cool with this, but there's always someone who - just because you mentioned you don't drink - assumes you're at the party to ruin it by preaching about the evil's of alcohol and thus hurries to inform you of how tired they are of people nagging them about alcohol being bad for you.

This doesn't make the person who's tired of "alcohol talk" a bad person in anyway, but it does ruin the party for both him and you.

The same happens in regard to alternative sexualities. If, for example, I'm watching a movie with someone and that someone comments "that guy is so hot" and I reply "Not my type, I like the woman next to him better" this might be viewed as me trying to lead our movie watching into talking about my sexuality or a debate about gay rights, when I simply was voicing my opinion on a perfectly innocent subject.

And that is basically the reason why I felt it necessary to leave the Holt. Not because Xiu's words greatly offended me - I just found his wording to be a little rude, but I've unknowingly offended people myself because of the way I've worded something on more than one occasion, so I don't really hold that against him.

No, the reason for me leaving is basically that I predict the discussion to come up again at more than one point (as the PCR-elves would be against "gay relationships" and we still had to figure out how that worked in relation to other elf tribes, when they'd finally meet), which would ruin the fun of roleplaying for everyone involved, not just me.

I'm sorry if I come off as overly touchy when it comes to this subject, I really don't mean to! I just find the debate interesting and wanted to make clear that I have nothing against Xiu or the Palace Quest Holt or, well, anyone here really.

I know emotional states are hard to tell from just words on a screen, so to be on the safe side I always rant at length about things like this. If that has backfired on me and have made me come off as being on-edge and very upset or something like that I'd just like to apologize for the spamming and to say I really am not.

Quote:
Baka
pps.: Maybe we should make a new thread for this tangent?

I assume you mean the Palace Quest Holt tangent? I wouldn't mind either way.

Sofia

Quote:
Gay culture is not really spread over the media. We got some gay magazines (no more than in the 80s) but to find a gay bar at a town you'll have to do some research first...
It's much like carnival: They get their festivals to let off some steam so they shut up for the rest of the year.
Media is always a very double-edged sword. The "popular" view of gays really seems to all stem from the pride parades and the gay marriage debates - preferably the more hysterical, less polite parts of the debate.

It's like with all things "not mainstream" - it's sort of trapped in an evil circle, influencing and being influenced by the general public's view of something few personally have "experienced".

Take car and airplane accidents for example. Here in Sweden newspapers rarely bother with stories about car accidents unless they're extremely horrific, because they're so common. Most people go by car everyday. Flying however is something less common and accidents involving that get more coverage just because it's a rarer and thus “more interesting” thing.

Thus people hear more about airplane accidents and are therefore generally more likely to be scared of flying than of riding in a car (since that's often an everyday occurrence), even though flying statistically is much safer.

Quote:
But all this pales into insignificance if you think about the discrimination of transgender and particularly intergender people. I could write an essay about that!
I wholeheartedly agree. As I mentioned before, if nothing else Sex Ed in schools (at least in Sweden) need to get better at what they're supposed to do!

Even though being transgender or intergender isn't a "sexuality" per say it's still a part of human biology and psychology and thus something that should be brought up in school. It's just basic logic!

Hopefully that'd lay down some basic understanding among the younger generations. Transgender and intergender rights and just general info about them really should get more attention. I have a FtM friend and he's had to go through so much crap because of who he is!

It's just very sad and stupid.

Leanan

I'd rather the Palace Quest Holt issue would not be discussed in a separate topic. That might make it look like I, or Sofia, or the other people who have left or might be considering leaving the Holt, would be deliberately attacking Palace Quest Holt on this forum in order to show people that Three Moons Holt is better.

That is not our intention. If you want to play Go-Backs the way I designed the tribe, join my holt. If you want to play Plainscatriders the way Xiu designed them, join his holt. If you want to play both, join both holts. If you want to play neither, that is perfectly fine too. As to where Icemoon's glider tribe will be played, I've invited her to follow me to Three Moons Holt but if she wants to stay in PQH that is fine too, only I won't be roleplaying there anymore.

Sofia

It seems I've nudged the thread off-topic (a talent of mine of late?), so to get back on track:



The way gay rights are handled in media doesn't seem to sit well with many, for different reasons. Now, if you got to decide how media would showcast gay rights, what would you change? Less of it? Different topics?



With the mass media as basis, what do you think would help the subject to become more socially acceptable (which is the goal really) and what do you think is being done that's not helping even if it's intended to (example: the "nagging")?

Crucent

well i have many lesbian friends, and a few gay ones too. Also my sister is a lesbian, so yeah, im for her having the same rights as i have when it comes to having kids if she wants them, or getting married (she is in a 16 year long relationship and yes, they are legally married and partners). Hell if you look at their finances and mine and hubbys, then asked who would be best suited for a kid, it'd be them, hands down.

Ecko

Quote:


well i have many lesbian friends, and a few gay ones too. Also my sister is a lesbian, so yeah, im for her having the same rights as i have when it comes to having kids if she wants them, or getting married (she is in a 16 year long relationship and yes, they are legally married and partners). Hell if you look at their finances and mine and hubbys, then asked who would be best suited for a kid, it'd be them, hands down.







lol i like how you said that last line...and congrats to your sis on the 16 year relationship....gives me hope with my girl

Baka

Erhm... *scratches the back of his head* First off, I'd like to clarify that in my pps I was talking about the Germany tangent, and nothing else. I was not, repeat, not trying to have the PQ Holt discussion to be moved to another thread. On the contrary: it's what started the discussion and is thus at the very heart of it.



Sofia, thanks for getting this thread back on track Smile. To answer your question, I guess the mass media 'should' refrain from overdramatising stories and putting the most extreme opinions in the spotlight. The problem is... that's just what mass media are. They thrive on our collective lust for sensation and for more more MORE drama -- they make these dramatised stories because people in general like them. And we like them because the media make lost of them and make them juicier every time. Now who's to blame? Voilà, one of the reasons I haven't watched tv for, say, six years now.



Moreover, who's to say what the media should and should not do, much less enforce it? One of the pillars of a free, open and healthy democracy is complete freedom of press. The press is and should always be able to report about any opinion they wish and write anything they want. Even untruths. Especially untruths, if that's what their customers want to hear. A press that is being told by anyone what they should and should not write is anti-democratic and, in my eyes, a thing so bad Winnowill dreams she had invented it.



What then? Well, I guess people in general should be more aware that not everything they read in a paper or see on tv is absolute, ineffable truth. Too many people I know consider something to be absolutely true because the media told them. I like to stimulate everyone to think and doubt for themselves. Don't take anything you're told completely for granted and never stop thinking for yourself. It's hard, it's a life without certainties and that's unnerving.



Fortunately, 'the media' are a very large thing. Especially since the rise of the Internet, all opinions and stories can have a voice.



I'm sorry, I'm ranting and getting this thing off-topic again. Felt good too write it down and share it, though.



In short: the media should not change their behaviour in any significant way. We, as media consumers, should however be more critical and open up ourselves for points of view different from the tv show we first watched and, especially, think for ourselves.

WhiteGhost

Ah ha! i found it! Page "6" of my "elvish sex ed" segment.

http://rosemadder.webs.com/THHFirstofMayPage6.jpg



I think Bran covers all the bases there, no? [He likes to lecture a bit much, haha!]



Bother- it cuts the edge off. Ah well.

Leanan

I love the way your brown-skinned elf speaks human like a foreign language. Good comic.

Baka makes a very good point on mass media.

I don't know how many of you grew up reading the 'yellow press' type magazines. I did. There were stories of 9-year-olds getting raped by their uncles and giving birth to babies. There were stories of sexual crime in general. There were stories of people who thought their cat was an alien, and all kinds of weird illnesses, and among these stories you'd find 'hermaphrodite gets pregnant! But she can't marry because her parents decided she was a boy when she was born!' or 'Man loves lesbians, changes his own gender to female. Double white wedding!'. In short, in these magazines, gays and other sexually different people were an object of interest and a source of entertainment. Gays were treated somewhere between the people with weird illnesses (who got the editor's sympathy but the photos showed the ugliest symptoms), and the celebrities (who got no respect whatsoever for their privacy and whether they wanted to be photographed or not).

And I grew up reading this crap. I read other things (so that in my head I thought, 'that cat isn't an alien, it's behaving perfectly normal for a Maine Coon breed', and other assorted scientific conclusions). From what I've seen, the media still does this to gays. Not all media, of course, not even all media controlled by straight people. I ordered a rainbow press type magazine for a few years, just to find out what the gays themselves are saying.

Baka

Quote:


(...) I ordered a rainbow press type magazine for a few years, just to find out what the gays themselves are saying.





Now I'm curious. Did you like what you read or... are rainbow type media just the same as any other?

Hehe... lols@ the idea of a gay magazine publishing a story about one of the strangest quirks of nature: a straight couple! Eek!

Leanan

I liked the magazine. It was called 'Z' by Seta, the Finnish organization for sexual equality. Their book and music reviews usually concentrated on what the book/lyrics said about gays, rather than whether they were well written/performed, but that was the only fault I found. The only reason I stopped ordering the magazine was I got too busy to read magazines. I really liked how the articles were written.

There actually was an article about a straight couple, but it doesn't count because one of the couple was bisexual and the reason the article was published was she'd been a gay rights activist when in relationship with a woman, and still supported the cause. (I could remember this wrong though, and I can't remember which issue or which year).

My all-time favorite gay media is the comic Dykes to Watch Out For. I really love Alison Bechdel's sense of humor. I remember one time my mom and her then-boyfriend were visiting me, they browsed through my bookshelf and found a Finnish translation issue of Dykes to Watch Out For. They spent a long time reading it but never asked me 'why do you have this comic?'. Instead, they laughed at the jokes. I'm just glad I hid the erotic comics under the sofa before they came for a visit. If someone asked me why I have a comic of 'Dr Jekyll and Mr Hyde' that mainly consists of naked women and hookah pipes, I honestly wouldn't be able to give a sensible answer. It was cheap and I was bored. And I never throw away comics.

WhiteGhost

Ty Smile He speaks English better then most, but Norther Elvish, not to well. [i am not translating my comics into elvish. people tell me:"its not an elf it talks like a human!" yeah. how else are you gong to read what he says? *headdesk*]



It sounds like "WeeklyWorld News" greengrocer checkout stand rag- "Baby born with three heads" "devils face seen in volcano cloud" "Talking cat predicts end of time!"



My friend he gave me a book some years ago before he went hoboing acros the countryside [last i heard he was n a fishing boat in britis columbia in '03] "Hothead Paisan Homicidal Lesbian Terrorist." http://www.hotheadpaisan.com/Pages9.07/Art.html



Its creatively violent at times Smile and Chicken is Love.

Leanan

Creatively violent? Interesting... also, I don't understand why anyone would complain about being able to understand your comic...

WhiteGhost

not so much the comic but the stories theyre based off. [rather its based off- i only managed to get 1/2 the one story comic-ized] *chuckles*

G0lden

True story here. A man is suing the Suzies Adult Superstore. Why. He wasn't promoted to a full time sales position. Mind you the guy got a high score on his test. Reason why he didn't get the job according to a supervisor. He wasn't gay. Yup it's true. It was in todays Sacramento Bee. The is suing for damages amongst other things including wrongful termination. I guewss also according to the article the are some assorted code violations at the particular is regards to certain behavoirs of the customers. Makes you wonder doesn't it?

Shimmermist

Relationships in so many ways are defined by our culture.



In the US, as in many other nations and peoples we are rewarded for monogamy. Girls, in particular, are raised to dream of their perfect wedding that will be their day to celebrate their bonding with their destined true love. People rejoice in people's pledges for fidelity and loyalty and love. Even the government gives us the ability to share our health insurance, credit status and even give tax breaks for legally wedding another.



I don't see any reason why people should be kept from making vows of devotion and the ability to reap these benefits. Denying them the option isn't going to make a gay person decide to be straight. They want to be married because they love the person they are with. They aren't going to just find someone else of the opposite gender to get married. They don't just want to be married, they want to be married to someone they love. Why is that confusing?



If they are consenting adults and they aren't hurting anyone then they should have equal rights to do what any other adult can.



Legally marry the one they love.



I believe wholeheartedly in the power and importance of love and acceptance. When we close our minds to the feelings of others and begin to judge we become detached from the ebb and flow of life. We become consumed with our own world we have created, become barbaric if just in thought and lose the glory of compassion and that which makes us more than just ourselves.



The wonder of humans is that they seek intelligence, the ever lingering answer to how and why, and they know the importance of sharing, being, bonding and loving with others will help to succeed in finding it. Some of this is instinct but a lot of it is much more. Our ability to care and feel for others, to love them as we love ourselves will always make us better than the alternative.



Not all will share my opinion and that is their right. I apologize for the lengthiness of this but I felt compelled to express my feelings and I hope they came out as I intended.



Please know that regardless of differing opinions, I will always respect those of others and I pray that mine will be given the same in turn.



Thank you.

Songflower

I'm married to a guy, but I'm a straight-identified bisexual (that means, I feel like a straight woman who also likes women, but not enough for an actual monogamous relationship--I did try one once, back in 1993 for a little while). Although I don't feel like a lesbian, I guess I have always felt myself on the very fringe of queer culture and community--you know what I mean, at the periphery of it.

I support full equal civil rights and have done all my life. It's hard for me to really understand the vehemence of the opposition, and it's easy for me to see how hurtful it all is--just like, the recent news stories of the lesbian who was dying in Florida and her life partner wasn't allowed in to see her during her last hours in the hospital (http://www.blogher.com/florida-federal-court-dismisses-lawsuit-lesbian-denied-information-about-and-visitation-dying-partne), and like the elderly gay male couple who were involuntarily separated and whose assets were confiscated by the state when the older one was deemed incompetent due to failing health
(http://www.bilerico.com/2010/04/sonoma_county_ca_separates_ elderly_gay_couple_and.php).

(Sorry, you can't just cut and paste the second link, because I had to put a space between "separates_" & "elderly," or the end of the quote just disappears. So you have to cut and paste and then get rid of that space.)

Anyway, still, gay rights have come a long way just in the time I can personally remember, which, I guess, on this issue starts in the late 70's. It seems clear to me, thank God, that the clock can't be turned back on this one.

Tonia

All I can say is that--PEOPLE LOVE WHO THEY LOVE, AND SHOULD BE ALLOWED TO LOVE WHO THEY LOVE, RECARDLESS OF WHO THE LOVE!!!!!!!!!

All People should have rights unless they break the law and get them taken away!!!!!

Leanan

Quote:


True story here. A man is suing the Suzies Adult Superstore. Why. He wasn't promoted to a full time sales position. Mind you the guy got a high score on his test. Reason why he didn't get the job according to a supervisor. He wasn't gay. Yup it's true. It was in todays Sacramento Bee. The is suing for damages amongst other things including wrongful termination. I guewss also according to the article the are some assorted code violations at the particular is regards to certain behavoirs of the customers. Makes you wonder doesn't it?





True story or not - what does this have to do with our topic? Whoever didn't give that man a job was guilty of discrimination against straight people. Of course this kind of discrimination happens. No one here is saying it's wrong to be straight.



You remind me of the people who come to a discussion about immigration policy armed with true stories about crimes committed by immigrants.

faeriegirl

I think G0lden told the story to illustrate there is also discrimination against straight people possible, instead of the general discrimination against gays... not off-topic at all!

Leanan

Maybe... but you have to ask yourself which kind of discrimination is more common... if the guy had been fired because he WAS gay, no one would think it even a newsworthy event.

lunakat

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I think G0lden told the story to illustrate there is also discrimination against straight people possible, instead of the general discrimination against gays... not off-topic at all!





Discrimination against anyone is possible- but Leanan makes a more valid point. Golden's example was the anomaly. Who gets discriminated against by society at large? Straight people or gay people? And who does it happen to more often?



The reason rules are set up to protect minority (or otherwise disenfranchised) groups is because the majority (and/or those with power) will consistently (and history has borne this out) discriminate against them- whether the issue is sexual orientation, race, gender or whatnot.



I found the article. Here it is: http://cbs5.com/watercooler/sex.shop.reverse.2.1653597.html



The man was working as a security guard for a sex shop. He applied for a sales position, but didn't get chosen. Apparently they wanted either a gay boy behind the counter...



I haven't been in too many sex shops, but I have noticed that the staff does tend to be either female or gay, by and large. I wonder if that's a thing with sex shops? I wonder if that is the case so as not to intimidate female clients? It sort of makes sense.



While it's unfair that the man was denied a sales position for being a straight guy (ie- not the image they wanted to project)-- I'm certain that, while such incidences may be the case at sex shops-- they are not the case when it comes to the majority of the rest of the jobs in the country.

lunakat

I agree 100% with Leanan. The day that we are debating the moral depravity of heterosexuality- the day that politicians get on TV and berate straight couples for wanting to marry- the day that a man and a woman get beaten up for being straight in the wrong neighborhood... and the day that a straight man is denied a job at Walmart, Bank of America or some other mainstream institution, simply on the basis of his heterosexuality... or has to question whether he wants his coworkers to know he has a girlfriend, for fear that they will ostracize him for it...

that's when we are going to be discussing discrimination against straight people.

The failure of a security guard to get a sales position at a sex toy shop is probably not an accurate reflection of the rest of the country.

Leanan

Mainly I'm wondering what G0lden meant by 'makes you wonder doesn't it?'

What does it make her wonder? Another conspiracy theory about gays wanting to rule the world?

We've already stated in this topic that gays are not any 'better' type of people than straight people. We've also stated there is no secret gay agenda. We've mentioned emperor Nero, the most insane gay ruler in history (although I think he was bisexual).

Sure, we can discuss discrimination against straight people. It does happen, in gay nightclubs for example. Discrimination against bisexuals is even more common - I was invited to a facebook group titled in French something like 'people who believe being bisexual is a fashion fad'. I've forgotten who invited me, because I clicked the ignore button. Both straight and gay people find us bisexuals suspicious. Gay people say we don't take our same-sex relationships seriously. Straight people suspect us of cheating in a relationship. The world is full of bi-curious people, most of them women. A true bisexual gets accused of 'following the fashion', even if she or he was bisexual long before it was fashionable.

Baka

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The world is full of bi-curious people, most of them women.


I disagree. In your otherwise great post, this little detail I'd like to say something about. The world is full of bi-curious people, indeed. But imho, there are as many men among them as there are women.

It's way easier for women to express it, though, and thus it's more visible and discussed more easily.

For women, bisexuality is easier to express because society finds it kind of interesting. Especially straight men (who still have the most power and thus the most effect on society) think it interesting, if nothing more. It's 'allowed' for two women to be physically closer than two men, so the next step, intimacy, isn't too much of a stretch.

The public mind, however, is very icky about two men being physically close, even among friends. Bi-curious men will seldom express those feelings to their buddies, because they will most probably be called a fag or a perv. Most of the time, they will not go through with it, just to keep up their 'manly' self-image, or even selectively forget that they are curious. If bi-curious men do go through with it, they do so in the deepest secret and will not lightly admit that they did.

The intimacy of Nightfall and Leetah's friendship is shown frankly in, among others, SaBM#1. Except for a few sparse panels (HY#9.5, p.30 comes to mind), the deepness of what Cutter and Skywise have, is never elaborated upon.

Thus, I guess there's way more bi-curious men around than you see at first glance. They don't discuss it, they don't admit it, sometimes not even to themselves.

I've heard some psychologists state that fervent homophobes are regularly those men who repress their bi-curiosity.

As for the rest of your post, I completely agree, Leanan! Smile

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