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About abortion, pro-life and pro-choice

Embala

This started over there about whether and why Winnowill caused abortions in Blue Mountain. I'll put it here in case anyone wants to continue this branch of the discussion.

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Never did like that storyline, not just because I'm pro-choice. (which means i'm as much against forced abortion as forced pregnancy), but why did Winnowill even bother to really create pregnancy in the first place? She could have just gone through the motions and said the baby died or it didn't take in the first place when there was no pregnancy taking place. It's motiveless malevalence.Headbang


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Actually there's a good reason for her to do it that way. Pride. She had to prove to herself that she could actually do it. And ending the lives she started gave her a sense of power over life and death. I find the whole thing repugnant, since I'm very much pro-life and anti-ending-another's-life-to-satisfy-yourself.


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Hoo Boy. This might get heated. Pro Life even with rape, life of the mother or a Tay-Sachs fetus?
Fortunately elves don't have to worry about the sad case of genetic diseases,
healers handle life of the mother, and rape seems to be rare to non-existant. And abortion would be futile with Recognition, because they would probably just Recognize again and again until a live offspring resulted. In humans though it's a sad necessity


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Magic, to avoid problems if you want to, I'll be glad to discuss the human side of things over in mail.


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I know I won't change your mind Lonetree.I personally think it's needed for at least the three instances above, and sometimes abortion actually saves a fetus (google "pump twin", "acardiac fetus" or parasitic fetus, something which wouldn't be possible if all eggs are considered equal.) It just seems odd for Winnowill to go through all that effort only to reverse it in my mind. I also find it odd that abortion is considered the crime that makes her irredeamable, while attempted genocide (of The Wolfriders, elf blooded wolves, trolls, perhaps even including her own son) is forgivable.
I agree that say Nightfall would have probably chosen to carry Tyleet to term even if meant risking her own life, but I think that elves, particularly the practical Wolfriders and Go-Backs wouldn't want to go through a pregnancy with a non viable offspring, particularly if death is painful and prolonged like in Tay Sachs etc...


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Rape, no. Disease or deformity, no. Life of the mother, yes, but ONLY in the early stages. In later stages an emergency C section is in order with every effort made to save the baby. I must point out that life of the mother was legal BEFORE Roe. And it's interesting that you only mention the hard cases, overlooking the fact that around 95% of abortions are NOT hard cases. A million human beings snuffed out a year in America alone is obscene.


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Genetically lethal diseases are often unkind deaths to say the least. It's not for me to judge if someone can "handle" a child predestined to die in their arms. I don't think that I could take it myself.
Yes I agree there are too many abortions. Almost half though, in surveys list finances as the primary reason for abortion and having a child in your teenage years is a great indicator of future poverty. Not every one is a Bristol Palin with a millionaire mother and a Dancing with the Stars contract. Wealth does not seem to be that big of a problem with the elves, and no elf tribe would let a child starve, unlike many of our current day human politicians.


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I don't accept finance as a reason for killing your unborn. My litmus test is this: would it be a valid reason to kill your BORN child? If not, forget it. The mother's life abortion is valid because it's triage, a case of either two people dying or just one. May I point out that Tay Sachs is limited to certain ethnic backgrounds and anyone from that background that doesn't get tested for the disease before trying for a child is careless beyond belief?


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There are lots of other genetic diseases, Patau's etc, caused by gene translocation or a de novo mutation, which the average person can't test for or doesn't think of testing for. Tay Sachs is also sometimes found in people of Mediterranean descernt, not just Azhkenazi Jews, French Canadians and Cajuns.
It's just that the gene is a lot less prevelant and a couple must be really unlucky to both be carriers. Arrgghh, overusing Google.


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Magic, this is a place to discuss elves, not humans. Again, if you want to continue this, let's take it to mail.


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ok. Im going to propose that a pro-life philosophy makes sense for elves, but not for humans.

Why? Theres 6 billion of us destroying the planet.


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True. And good point.
But please, make a new thread to discus anything really in depth about pro-life/humans and the like.


... and I did now. Please tell me when I missed something or did something wrong.
*sigh ... really miss the Preservers ... they could have simply split this*

Lonetree

Thank you, Embala, good job! I still stand by everything I've said so far. I'd also like to point that there is a legal maxim that says "Hard cases make bad law".

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hard_cases_make_bad_law
http://www.answers.com/topic/hard-cases-make-bad-law
http://thefire.org/article/7969.html

Trollbabe

At last, the other highly volatile topic is up for discussion.



I question whether "choice" in the USA is a real choice, for all women.



From personal experience as an emergency foster parent, I found that our teen charge's "choices" were hardly choices. Choice between abortion and dropping out of school, abortion and welfare, abortion and homelessness, abortion and returning to an abusive home environment, were hardly choices. The responsible male believed in "a woman's right to choose", until she chose to give birth and keep the baby. Then he hightailed it out of town.



And while pregnant women can get an abortion for hundreds of dollars, why do infertile women have to meet restrictive qualifications, cough up ridiculous amounts of money, and travel to the ends of the earth to adopt babies, or else exhaust their savings in infertility treatments? What kind of choice is that?

G0lden

Because most of the healthcare in this country is geared towards males. If men gave birth, then abortions and women's healthcare would be taken care of no questions asked.

RedheadEmber

Well... I think the woman in the end has the ultimate decision but obviously you shouldn't just go fucking around un-protected not expecting to run into certain issues...

Trollbabe

That's a problem I have with much of American popular culture. Condoms don't seem to exist in R-rated movies and adult TV shows. When characters are depicted having unprotected sex, the consequences are really downplayed. TV characters may have an unexpected pregnancy, followed by a glorious out-of-wedlock birth, after which everyone goes back to work as if nothing happened. But does anyone ever get AIDS, or other horrible diseases? Is the baby born infected? No, that would be too realistic.

RedheadEmber

And of course the pregnant girl always ends up being totally able to take care of a baby...

sulken

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Well... I think the woman in the end has the ultimate decision but obviously you shouldn't just go fucking around un-protected not expecting to run into certain issues...







Ehm, I don't want any children, especially not now. I'm also not taking the pill, for several reasons. No big deal, condoms are available. However, imagine one scary night I have an 'unpleasantly' encounter with a man (the city I'm living in, I heard, has Germany's highest rape-rate) and I get pregnant. I think it's really comforting to know, that I can have an abortion if needed.



Women, who want to have an abortion aren't necessarily 'fucking around' teenage girls. There are a lot of reasons why women don't want to give birth to a child.

G0lden

Here's my 2 cents worth on this issue.



First of all when I was younger I was on the pill. I didn't gain weight, in fact I lost nearly 60 lbs while on the pill. So all of these young women out who won't take the pill because they think they will gain weight is a bunch of b.s. If in doubt have a very frank discussion with your ob/gyn. There are forms of birth control that will cause wieght gain and the pill isn't necessarily one of them.



Abortion should be a last resort not the first for birth control. I have noticed this in young women of late. Go and have sex with no protection and if they happen to concieve they get an abortion when using birth control would have prevented a pregnancy from happening in the first place.



Then there is the issue with our young men. Where on earth did they get the idea that it is okay to get several different girls pregnant and fail to support the children they create.



Remember it takes 9 months to concieve and give birth, but only a few minutes of work on the man's part to create a baby. In short it takes two to tango.



It is high time that birth control by made available to the young women in this country for little or no cost. Fewer unwanted pregnancies will equal in fewer abortions needed to be performed. Plus don't forget there is the morning after pill, which is essectially a double or triple dose of birth control pills and is considered emergency contraception for young ladies that didn't use birth control or victims of rape.



I wish young men had a pill they could take to prevent pregnancy instead of leaving it up to the young women to take care of. As for all those men that are against birth control or abortion. When you give birth to an 8 pound bowling ball, congratulations, now you have an idea what a woman goes through to bring new life into the world. If men had babies birth control and abortions would be made available no questions asked.

Trollbabe

Hard for me to read this topic sometimes...



I've seen birth, but I have never been priveleged to experience it. I wouldn't care if the baby weighed eight pounds, or twelve, or fifteen, for that matter. But I don't have the money for miracles.



I've met men who are pro-life, but I've also dealt with the kind who think that "a woman's right to choose" equals a man's right to an easy escape from responsibility.



If only more men appreciated the fact that their very existence depended upon a woman's abilty to conceive and give birth, they would have more respect for this gift, and for our bodies. Then there would be no rape and no exploitation. No woman would have to choose abortion over poverty or homelessness. Maybe they would find a way to transfer a baby from one woman's belly to another, so the baby would have a safe place to grow and be born. They have the time and money to develop drugs for male impotency. Surely they could do this for women and babies.

G0lden

Amen.

lunakat

The idea that abortion is used as a form of birth control (Golden brought this up) is an absurd myth. Abortion is always a last resort- except for the most irresponsible of people, who you wouldn't have raising children anyway. Sometimes, birth control fails. Sometimes you have an accident. Sometimes, an abortion is what you have to do to avoid a terrible situation. And I'm sorry- but babies are a huge responsibility. Raising another human life is nothing to take lightly or do on a whim. It's something to plan for. Most abortions (unless there is some form of medical emergency) happen within the first trimester- which is when most natural miscarriages happen. Most abortions are not late term. And most women who have abortions take the experience very seriously.

I completely agree that the argument against abortion is punitive and sexist. If men were capable of getting pregnant- I'm sure abortion would be an inalienable right. There would be no debate.

G0lden

Hate to tell you this luna. I have overheard young women's conversations. Trust me when I say this that there are those young women out there that view abortion equal to birth control. Their attitude is so what if I get pregnanat, I'll just get an abortion. No thought of preventing a pregnancy, just go and have sex and damn the consequences.

lunakat

Hate to tell you this, Golden- but you shouldn't make assumptions based on overheard conversations.



Girls may talk... but doing it is different. When you're faced with the choice, it's not easy. But yeah, I would get an abortion if I were pregnant tomorrow. I would do it, because I can't raise a baby right now. As soon as I found out, I would schedule an abortion. That's not irresponsible. That's practical.



But I would of course use birth control and try to avoid that situation first- because having an abortion hurts like hell, is a terrible experience and is not something anyone wants to do. I'm sure all the girls you overheard talking are doing what they can to avoid getting pregnant- and if not.. if they are that naive... then I'm sure that once they have to go through such an experience the first time, they will do what they can to avoid it happening again.



You can say anything- but when it comes down to it, it's not an easy choice for anyone to make- but it's a choice a woman should have the right to make. And it's not your right to judge- it's not even your right to judge how a person talks about it. Because you don't know what their situation is.



I can tell you right now, if I found out that my dog had cancer and that he would have to undergo some painful treatments, I would probably put him to sleep. I can say that flippantly or with a deep and serious undertone... but faced with having to put my dog to sleep, that's a hard decision. I would do it, not because I don't love my dog- but because I know it would be the right thing to do.



And before anyone tells me a dog is not equivalent to a human being-- that was a choice we made for my grandmother. She had a terrible illness and was suffering. We literally put her to sleep. We asked the doctors to dose her up on morphine and cease keeping her alive. She could probably have lived for a few more months- but that would have been the wrong choice to make for her.



Faced with an abortion in the early portion of a pregnancy, vs not being prepared to raise a child and give it a good life and the right kind of attention... I think abortion is the right choice. I think euthanasia was the right choice for my grandma.



My mom likes to say, flippantly, that she wants to be taken out to the backwoods and shot if she ever gets old... and then, she wants to be freeze-dried or something and kept in the closet and taken out on holidays. (my mom's sense of humor is a little twisted.) People say a lot of things. But when it comes down to it, these decisions are serious business- and should remain a personal matter.

Trollbabe

This is off the subject, but I administered morphine to my father and ceased efforts to keep him alive. I was with him when he died in my home, under my care. I watched him as his body shut down and he died. Was this euthanasia?

G0lden

Some would say yes. However if your father lived a full live and his quality of life would never have been returned to him then what yuou did was mercy. You had the grace to know that he will never recover and you allowed him to go in peace.







Luna my observation is based on real fact, not heresay. The young woman who happens to be the mother of my grandson had 2 abortions prior to becoming pregnant with him at age of 22.. Her attitude was one of indifference. How and why she choose to become a mother the third time around I have no clue. She has never used birth control and she has in fact stated the abortions are a form of birth control. I hope you can now see the complete disconnect in the realities that some of our youth have in regards to what constitutes as birth control or abortion. No, I don't get to see my grandson, he lives too far away for me to see on a regular basis. Yes I do send birthday cards and gifts. As for his father, my youngest son. He is out of the picture, I probably won't see him again in my lifetime since he is a guest in the CA penal system.

Lonetree

Luna, I must agree with Golden. My own niece had an abortion at 15 and she did not have to! She was healthy, the baby was healthy, and her mother (my sister) and stepfather had told her that they would raise the baby for her, so it wasn't going to interfere with her education or future, and she certainly wouldn't have ended up homeless or destitute. But she was a teenager who had swallowed the poison and really believed that abortion was no big deal. So at 13 weeks she paid to have her first child killed. My parents were devastated and neither of them ever really forgave her. As for me, I can't look at her without thinking about what she did and feeling sick. I'm actually glad that she lives in another state.

lunakat

Lonetree, with all due respect, there is no way that having a baby at fifteen won't interfere with a girl's education and future. If you think that, you are either unbelievably naive or full of it. Your niece made the a difficult decision for herself, and you have no right to judge her for it. Her parents have no right to make that decision for her either. it's her life, not yours or theirs. I think you are incredibly in the wrong here. Only a truly self centered jerk would maintain that attitude toward a fifteen year old who had to deal with that kind of trauma. Sorry. That's just how I see it.

I'm glad she lives in another state too. I hate to think how she would feel if she had to handle condemnation on top of that level of personal crisis. Her family should be giving her emotional support, not attacking her on a personal level.

lunakat

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This is off the subject, but I administered morphine to my father and ceased efforts to keep him alive. I was with him when he died in my home, under my care. I watched him as his body shut down and he died. Was this euthanasia?





Yes, it was.

sulken

Regarding the high medical costs in the states, I assume have an abortion in the US is more expensive than here in Germany. But doesn't mean it's cheap here (360-460 EU, 497-636$). I still would have an abortion if I was pregnant, which I try to avoid the regular way. I'm studying Sinology, so I'm likely to spent a lot of time in China in my future working life. The pill doesn't protect from STD's, China, like the USA until recently, won't let people HIV/positive enter the country. So getting this illness not only would inflict me with a serious illness, my whole study, all the time and money I invested would be wasted. That's why I don't take the pill, it's not for weigh tissues. Condoms only.

@Golden: Saying that most women do not see abortion as some kind of birth control does not mean there aren't any who does. In the communist Eastern Europe (later on) abortions were illegal, so the women went had to do it illegal. Insanitary places, rusty knives, wires, clothes hangers. A lot of women died during the procedure and everybody knew such things happens. The women, who went there knew too. But they still went. I don't think they thought of it as 'easy birth control' light-heartedly.

G0lden

Lonetree I'm sorry that your family has been broken due to your sister's choice. Sadly there are those young ladies that make this sort of choice without thought of preventing pregnancy from happening to begin with, but here is an interesting flip side to your families story.





My mother became pregnant with me at age 14. My grandmother was going to force her to have an abortion. My mother, despite being so young decided to talk to her cousin who was 9 yrs older. This cousin was very wise for a young woman of only 23 yrs of age. She advised my mother that an abortion was not a very good idea and that my grandmother had no right to force her to have an abortion. My mother chose to have me, only to have my grandmother try to throw her out of the house. Thankfully my grandfather stepped in, he remembered his days as a young man and he himself had to worry if a young lady he was with became pregnant. He refused to allow my grandmother to throw my mother out of the house. My mother had me at 15. My father did marry her a 14 1/2 yr, but the marriage didn't last. Now here is where this whole situation could have been avoided to begin with. Unlike the girls of today or when I started to mature into a young woman, my grandmother never gave my mother the frank talk about sex and how babies are made. You got it, my mother found out the hard way that the great deal of fun she had with my father had a consequence and that consequence became me. So if my mother knew this information to begin with her life may have been very different. As to whether or not I would have been born in the long run, I wouldn't hazard a guess.





@Catfish what I said is that there are those young women out there who do view abortion as a means of birth control, but these same young women don't consider using birth control to prevent a unwanted pregnancy to begin with. I feel for those who find abortion is their only choice due to lack of inexpensive birth control or open access to it. I have heard that depending on were you live in the States that you can get an abortion for as little as $150, but remember this is what I have heard.

Lonetree

Lunakat, malarkey! Girls can and do go to school while pregnant, and I've already pointed out that my sister and her husband would have raised the baby for her. Don't try and use that as an excuse for paying to have your baby killed. And I have every right to judge her, thank you very much. Her "choice" devastated my family and caused my parents untold grief. Do you really think that abortion only affects the girl who gets it???? Talk about being self-centered!!! And how about the baby who has had its whole life stolen from it?

GOlden, I'm glad your mother had the courage to have you, and that your grandfather had such compassion. I wish my niece had had that courage...it would have spared my family so much heartache.

Catfish, it is definitely a good idea to use condoms for STDs but the sad fact is they are NOT 100% effective in preventing pregnancy. There's about a 15% failure rate. You really do need to use some form of BC in addition to condoms.

lunakat

Of course they can do it- but they shouldn't be forced to just because they made a mistake as a teenager. Her choice may have devastated your family, but her choice is her choice. My mother was devastated that I dated a girl for eight years. She said it wrecked her emotionally and I could have done nothing worse to hurt her. That may have been true- but it was still none of my mother's business who I dated. You know, feel how you want about it- but it's still none your business to make that choice for anyone else, nor is it the business of that girl's parents to force her to become a mother at fifteen. How you feel has no relevancy regarding her reproductive rights. It was and should only ever have been that girl's personal choice. So your family needs to go get therapy or something, but that's all they really have a right to in this situation. My heart goes out to your niece for having to deal with you all.



Golden, I think trying to force someone to have an abortion is as bad as trying to prevent them from doing so. I'm glad your mom stood up for herself.



And yeah, I'm sure there are women who view abortion as a form of birth control. But like I said, it's easy to be naive when you've never experienced a thing.



I'm also sure a lot of other people confuse sex with love. Or an embryo with a baby. That doesn't make them one and the same.

RedheadEmber

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Ehm, I don't want any children, especially not now. I'm also not taking the pill, for several reasons. No big deal, condoms are available. However, imagine one scary night I have an 'unpleasantly' encounter with a man (the city I'm living in, I heard, has Germany's highest rape-rate) and I get pregnant. I think it's really comforting to know, that I can have an abortion if needed.

Women, who want to have an abortion aren't necessarily 'fucking around' teenage girls. There are a lot of reasons why women don't want to give birth to a child.







Sorry, I forgot to mention that I think there are certain cases in which abortion is definitely okay: in case of rape and if the pregnancy in any way causes any health risk to the woman.

But... if someone who's been raped feels she can take care of, and love, her child (even if said child might bear a physical resemblance to the rapist) I can only say that this girl wins my prize for coolness. (And if she one day finds someone to love said person will have to step up to the plate and be a parent for the child.)

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Going slightly back in the line of discussio now.

Even if it's terribly 'cheesy' at some points I actually find the MTV programme

Teen Mom rather educational. They are being completely open about the issue being a problem, they have those rather regular check-ups with that Doctor and they have included a couple who decided to put their daughter up for adoption. (Even if her mother was very angry about it!)

Crucent

I'm not gonna re-check this topic, but i'll say a few things.

1) thank GOD I live in Norway where we dont have those hideous people who think they have the right to tell me what I should and shouldn't do with my own body when I'm pregnant. (I mean the loonies outside abortion clinics. It'd be like me showing up outside your house, telling you that you'll go to hell for getting a new tattoo/haircut/tooth pulled/whatever. It's preposterous.)

2) I am a married woman of 31, we have a son who is about to turn seven and I love him dearly.

3) I've had 2 abortions after having my son, both times I got pregnant was with my husband.

I had those abortions after serious talks with hubby, cause we are frankly poor and have neither the money or the space for 2 more children. Was the abortions easy to go through? not at all. Do I think me and my husband made the right choises, hell yes. Better to spend our love, moey and time on the one child we do have then bring two more, who would be equally as much loved, but suffering from a set of far poorer parents. Cause lets face it, generally having a bad economy tends to make all problems, big or small, seem 100 times worse.
Harsh, but true, at least for me.

I'm not gonna apologize or explain myself to anybody beyond this post, cause it was OUR choise and if anybody tried to force their opinions and values on me when I had made up my mind to have my abortions, I would have punched you so hard in the face.
I don't give a crap about what you may think; making that choise was the hardest thing ever, and if you dare to think less of me because of it so I hear it, be glad Im not near you. Noone has the right to tell me what to do with my body, and I will not let anybody spout THEIR opinions and feelings on me for making the choises I made.

Lonetree

Luna, I just have this to say to you. The minute she got pregnant she WAS a mother. She just chose to kill her baby rather than have it. And she cost BOTH my parents the one chance they had to ever see a great-grandbaby. My father died two years later. My mother died four years later. And as I said my niece's cowardly and selfish "choice" devastated them. So don't you DARE try and tell me I have no right to despise my niece. DON'T YOU DARE!



I should point out that I share a great deal of my maternal grandmother's values. She was an amazing woman, who managed to raise five children during the Great Depression. It wasn't easy, but it made her whole family stronger.

RedheadEmber

Lonetree, just butting in here. Your opinion might be that your niece was a mother the moment she got pregnant, this isn't an opinion everybody shares. A lot of people don't consider a fetus a child until after it's born, or at least not till late in the pregnancy. I don't know how early the abortion was performed but maybe it was still only en embryo, you know; tiny little thing which bears no resemblance to a child.

Ooh and, you know it's not a human right to get to see your great-grandchildren. It's a privilege. All my great-grandparents died before either of us were born (at least I think my paternal great-grandparents (paternal grandfather's parents) died before my cousins from his first marriage were born (they have the same grandfather as me but not the same grandmother))

My paternal grandmother, who was 95 when she died, only got to see one actual great-grandchild (but she was "great-grandmother" to my grandfather's other great-grandchildren.)

If your parents were expecting their 15-year-old granddaughter to fulfill their dream of becoming great-grandparents they were the egotistical ones!



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Something else: (Actually a bit of a confession)

When I first (through FB) realized that quite a few of my old school-mates had children I was totally "WT... YOU CAN'T HAVE CHILDREN!!!" Not, mind you, from a "OMG!!! WHY HAVE YOU BEEN SO IRRESPONSIBLE! WHAT KIND OF PARENTS ARE YOU????" PoV (from what I can gather at FB they are all really good parents who deeply love their children) but from a "BUT... BUT... BUT... YOU'RE MY AGE!!! AND WE WENT TO SCHOOL TOGETHER LIEK, YESTERDAY!!" (In fact it's 6 years for some, 7 years for the others, since I went to school with them...)

I turn 23 this year, biologically the best time for me to have children would be; now! Give and take a few years. Mentally, however, the best time for me to have children would be; never!

lunakat

Lonetree... Your parent's desire to be grandparents for the four remaining years of their lives does not override your niece's right to make the decision of whether she wanted to be a mother at fifteen. I'm sorry for her that you choose to despise her. That's certainly your right. I think you are completely in the wrong. That's my opinion. If you don't want to hear my opinion, you shouldn't bring up your family issues here to make a point. So yes, I'll dare to say whatever I think is honest.

Lonetree

Redhead Ember, maybe you missed where I mentioned she was 13 weeks pregnant when she had the abortion. If you think a 13 week baby is formless, you need to do a little research.

To both Redhead Ember and Lunakat, it was Sarah's CHOICE to have unprotected sex at 15. That she wasn't mature enough to deal responsibly with the consequences, that she CHOSE to disregard the pleas of the whole family, that she CHOSE to refuse her mother's offer? THAT is a TRAGEDY that divided the family and caused untold pain. That you seem to think it's all irrelevant? That's your problem, not mine. I KNOW that abortion is the worst thing a woman can ever do, a sin against her children that can never be undone. And yes, a woman/girl IS a mother from the very moment she gets pregnant. The fact that she can choose to kill her baby doesn't change that fact.

I must also point out that there is a HUGE difference in dying before your great-grandchild is born and the same great-grandchild being killed in the womb.

G0lden

Lonetree I'm sorry your parents felt they were denied being great grand parents, but sadly your neice made her choice based on her own personal feelings. What your parents were asking of your niece may have been more than she could handle. It does not make her a bad person either. We now see micro preemies survive, but at what cost to their future health. Not all preemies do well later in life. Abortion is between a woman, her doctor, and her God. There is a complete disconnect with reality. If your niece had used birth control, then there would have been no issue over whether or not she had an abortion. I hope you can see how this plays out. When I was born, the pill wasn't even available yet. If a young man got a girl pregnant there usually was a wedding. Now days the man runs for the hills.



As far as being a teen mom: here's the reality check. Yes they can stay in school, but the likelihood of acheiving more rarely happens. Very few teen moms continue their education to include college. Many do live in poverty. Biggest reason for that the failure of the father to pay child support and lack of family support. So this is were proper use of birth control and sex education could help prevent a young woman from becoming a mother at too young of an age and reduce the number of abortions. Also family values will help greatly. Young women could be taught the pitfalls of having sex at too young of an age by their parents and young men could be taught by those same parents that they are also responsible if they get a girl pregnant. Remember it takes two to tango.



Lastly for those who are against abortions. That is you choice as well, however: you have no right to demonstrate in front of a high school, doctors homes, or the actuall clinics themselves. Voice your opinion, but at the same try to remember others have a different view of things. This brings to mind a true story of a young family friend of mine. She was 17 or 18 when she was diagnosed with Hodgkins Disease. She was on the pill and taking it faithfully. Once the radiation treaments began, she became very ill. Her stupid boyfriend still wanted sex, even when he knew she was very ill at the time. Due to her youth and inexperience in dealing with aggressive males she gave into him. Well you can imagine what happened. She became pregnant and had been receiving high doses of radition for Hodgkins at the same time. Having an abortion was her only option at the time. Her mother and a nurse had to protect a petite ill young woman into an abortion clinic while being surrounded by protestors. These protestors never gave a thought about the fact that she was terminating a pregnancy due to illness. They had pretty much pigeon-holed all young women who seek abortions as baby killers. For me the saddest thing is that none of these protesters practice what they preach. They are the ones that want aid cut to poor women and children, but fail to realize that because of their views on abortion is why there is a need for aid to begin with.

lunakat

Golden- that was extremely well explained, and I couldn't agree more.

SailorSilvanesti

My opinion is one for pro-choice, I cannot fathom why anyone in a position of power would attempt to force pro-life on people.



While there are, what I would term, 'serial aborters' and those who abuse the pro-choice rights, there are cases that do really need the service provided.

There are many reasons:

-Medical?

*What if it was determined by trained medical professions that either the mother or baby was at severe health risk?

*I was told once of a horrifying story wherein a woman [back in the time where anti-natal scans were relatively new] found out in the eigth-minth that her baby's skull had not formed, therefore rendering it dead the instant is was born.

As it could not survive without the amniotic fluid.

/It would most likely have been better if she could have aborted than go through everything and know that there was not even a chance that she would be taking a baby home.

*There is also a chance that the quality of life afforded to teh potential child would be severely limited, like some babies are born with retardation [mediacl term, not slur] and various other deformities in combination that stops them from being able to function in, or even realise they are in this world.

Is it fair to force them through this?



-Not to mention Rape & Underage Pregnancy,

*Would you force a woman [or, Valar forbid] a child to not only carry but give birth to and raise their rapist's child?

That would be a horrific endevour on both their parts, especially since -at some point- the woman may harbour a sub-conscious resentment towards the child, or the child feel ashamed as to their heritage.

*Or underage pregnancy, would you force a child to have a child? I know kids who were in my school, drop out to have babies, and you know what? They don;t cope well!

-It's not a doll, or a cute ideal anymore, it is a living, breathing individual that requires consistent love and attention; most kids in the 12-20 age group cannot usually cope with this!

I couldn;t, I'm 18 and prefer to care for a baby, but hand it back...



Pro-life is made up of 95% religious fanatic men [as shown by Oprah on one of her Specials] who can NEVER truly understand what it means to either carry a child, or abort one, so why should they even have a say?



I believe it is important that abortions be allowed, because there really are cases where it is needed, besides a horrifying alternative is, if they are denied the service, they will attempt to do it themselves or go to back-alley clinics.



I would much prefer even 'serial-abortists' to go to a licenced medical clinic where the proceedure can be performed safely and competantly, than dank backyard with a coathanger!



Think of that, would you have your children use such a place because Pro-Choice was in control?



Having said this, I do believe in a time limit to abortion, though.

My mother was a nurse and says that 16 weeks is still too late, at that point, they actually have to break tiny bones to remove the embryo, up until about 6-10 weeks should be the maximum...then the embryo is barely even formed...



This is my opinion, I wish noone to take offence, only to see my reasoning and perspective, everyone is enititled to their own ideals, these are mine.

Stormcatcher

Please note: I'd like to point out that the following lines are not intended to hurt anyone. Should anyone be offended by the following words I expect the reader to suffer in silence like adults do and refrain from lashing out at me. That bad karma's on you, not on me.



I sincerely hope that Lonetree's opinion came out harsher than it was intended, as I find it difficult to think my way into extremes. After habitually not understanding other people for over 45 years now I've got some routine in the progress that takes you to slip into another's mind - but I'll neither grasp the "Hey let's f*ck I can have an abortion anytime" nor the "every egg is sacred" view on pregnancy.



A real life "what-if" (well, I'm not entirely making this up): What might have happened if Lonetree's niece had decided otherwise? If she had told herself: I'm not sure if I can cope with this, but my grandparents want it so much, I'll have the baby. So she has it, grandparents are happy, baby is sound (hopefully) but mommy is not. Mommy does her job, but fails to feel love for her kid, getting unhappier every year. What if mommy started to take drugs - mother's little helpers - tranquilizers, painkillers and the like, just what the doctor will give her to ease her unhappiness? What if she left the kid with her grandparents and went off to start a new life someplace else? Will they tell her what a bad, irresponsible mother she is? Or will they realize that she might be a happy 18-year-old college girl now if they only hadn't insisted on her in giving birth to the baby?

A child with an unhappy, overstrained mother is likely to develop a personality disorder - would the grandparents be able to deal with an erratic youth who smashes the TV, is picked up by the cops for drunk and disorderly and/or speeding in a stolen car? Or will they finally break out in the line one of my friends is plagued by to date: "I wish your mother had an abortion instead of you!" That friend of mine is a very peaceful, passive lad. But that day he was on the verge of running amuck, starting with his grandmother.



I know it's purely academic as Lonetree's family history has run a different course, but - would the grandparents really be happier for it?



PS: Considering time limits, I've assumed a rather liberal view. If the embryo is fit to live outside the womb, I'd say it's too late for an abortion. Except in case of rape or serious health risk to the mother - if I were a PD I'd probably help in an abortion till the estimated day of birth to save the woman's body and mind.

lunakat

Quote:
PS: If the embryo is fit to live outside the womb, I'd say it's too late for an abortion.

Most abortions occur within the first trimester (ie, first 12 weeks)... Unless there is a medical emergency, you aren't supposed to have an abortion later than that. So this isn't really an issue.

Lonetree

Stormcatcher, what would have happened if Sarah had had the baby? I already TOLD you. My sister and her husband would have raised it, just as they took in several of his grandchildren. No pressure on Sarah, and when she was ready she could step in. BTW, Sarah never went to college. She had no interest whatsoever in higher education.

And for all of those who dismiss the pain my parents and I endured as unimportant and irrelevant? You just don't get it, do you? That baby was our great-grandchild and great-niece or nephew. WE ALREADY LOVED IT! And then it was gone, just like that, and our hearts were ripped apart. And we had to live with the knowledge that Sarah killed her own baby. I hope you NEVER have to go through such pain.

G0lden

Lonetree no one is discounting the pain your family felt for the choice Sarah made. She made her choice based on her own needs. There are so many young women who don't have any support from their families when they become pregnant at such a young age. More importantly a girl that age shouldn't be having a child under no circumstances, she is simply too immutare to be a parent. My own mother may have been a rather mature 15 yr old when I was born, but she was far from ready to be a parent. She didnn't fully understand the value of life unitl I had heart surgery just before my 17th birthday. It took her until age 32 to figure that one out. I was more mature than my mother by age 15 and I didn't have my first child until age 19 and my oldest is a 5 wk preemie. I had a lot to deal with once he was born and then to have to deal with 3 operations he had in the first five months of his life.



Even with all the help the family promised she would have been the primary caregiver of that baby if she carried it to term. She would have gone through labor and delivery, and then suddenly decided she could take care of the baby on her own and that could lead to disaster. You can easily see how many different scenarios that can come to mind. Sarah was probably not ready to go through giving birth and felt like the family was pressuring her to do what they thought was best for themselves, rather than asking her what she would like to do. Since she was a teen at the time, you yourself know how willful a teen can be.



So don't feel as though others think your families pain isn't real, but you have to realize this one thing. Sarah will carry with her for the rest of her life the choice she made and the choice her family made in regards to her ultimate decision.

lunakat

I would add to what Golden said...

I'm sure the pain your family felt over your niece's abortion was very real. And it's unfortunate. But that is a private matter for you all to resolve in your own hearts as you see fit. It should have no bearing on your niece's legal right to make that decision for herself. Of course it's not irrelevant to you- but it's irrelevant to the larger discussion.

Whatever Sarah chooses to do with her life- that's her right. It's her life, not yours. She simply wasn't ready to be mother, obviously- no matter who was offering to help her raise the baby. And no one should ever be forced into that predicament if they can avoid it. It is a huge emotional burden.

RedheadEmber

Lonetree, okay, so I missed the little detail about how late the abortion was performed.

I'm sure the pain you and your parents felt was very real but, as I already mentioned; it's not a human right to have great-grandchildren or great-nieces/nephews, it's something which, if it happens, should be considered a great privilege which if it happens should be appreciated greatly but if it doesn't... oh well... (of course getting a great-niece/nephew is a lot more likely than getting a great-grandchild.)

Let's say we have a family in which all women have their first child at age 30. Then a woman would be 60 when she became grandmother for the first time and 90 when she became great-grandmother for the first time. Even today, with our medical knowledge, living to be 90 is quite an achievement.

But why did your niece have to wait that long as she did before she got her abortion? To be, and I could be completely wrong here, it seems as if your sister and brother-in-law used a lot of time trying to convince her to keep the child.



Sometimes it seems to me like some people see those who are pro-choice as those who always will have performed an abortion, to me pro-choice is, well, pro-choice! A woman's body is her own, nobody should decide what she does with it. Unfortunately a lot of young women does not realize that pro-choice includes the right to say 'no!' to advancements from other people.

G0lden

The saddest thing I find with the situation in Lonetree's family is that everyone has suffered because of a choice that was made by a very young and pregnant teen. What I really don't understand is why the family is still angry with her choice since it happened some time ago. You hear of families being divided because a child was born out of wedlock and they eventually reconcile, but is a case of a family divided because of an abortion and everyone is still angry. Life is simply too short to carry that kind of anger. Maybe it's time for forgiveness to happen so the family can finally heal and be a family again.



Red you are somewhat correct about the great grand parent thing. My great grandmother was about 28 when she had my grandfather and she was 79 when I was born. My grandfather was 36 when my mom was born, 51 at the time of my birth, and 70 when I had my oldest child. My mom is a different subject, since she had me at 15 and my brother at 17, she become a grandma at two different times. My mom was 34 when I had my first son and 37 when my youngest was born. My brother waited a little longer than I did to have kids so she became grandma again at 51 and 53 for my brothers two boys. My youngest has a son, so I became a grandma at 45 and my mom a great grandma at 60. As you can see it really isn't too hard to be a great grandparent all. Well, my family may be a weird exception, living well into our 80's or 90's is not uncommon.

RedheadEmber

Well, my paternal grandfather also "became a grandfather in two groups" so to speak. First to the grandchildren from the children of his first marriage, then to my three cousins and my older sister. (He never 'became' grandfather to me, my younger cousin and my younger sister. He died about a month before I was born)

But, G0lden. As you said; your mother was 15 when she had you. That's pretty damn young. I'm not saying people never get great-grandchildren, just that it isn't a human right. Just like getting grandchildren isn't a human right either. My two cousins might very likely never have children, should my aunt go whine about having her 'change of getting grandchildren' spoiled? Of course not!



But, just a question to everyone here: How can you be pro-life if you go around killing abortion doctors? Don't they have a life as well?

G0lden

That was the point Red. My grandparents waited more than 5 yrs before they finally had a family. My grandfather thought he would never grandchild. Then I came along, he thought the same thing about being a great grandpa. You know how that went.



Plus you asked a very interesting and good question. We have the death penalty here in CA. Only those who truly committed the most heinous crimes should recieve such a sentence, however they tend to live a good 20 longer than their victims. You have to take into account appeals and what not which drags out the process.



With that being said. There are those who consider themselves pro-life, but they would call for the death of a dr who performs abortions and then demand the death penalty as well. A dr just doesn't spend his entire day performing abortions. They have to care for their patients like any other dr, plus they have a family that they care about.



In fact we had a case of a pro life activist killing a well known dr because he performed abortions. I can't remember all of the details, but the dr was well known and I think he was one of the few drs who performed late term abortions. Well this pro life activist (a male), tried to argue that he was justified in murdering the dr in a church of all places. Needless to say the jury didn't buy his arguement. He is now facing the death penalty.

Lonetree

Yes, what Sarah did was legal. Did I ever say it wasn't? But legal does not mean RIGHT. And for information, no, Sarah would NOT have been the main caretaker of the baby. My sister would have taken that role, just as she did for the two step-grandchildren she took in and raised. Consider this, for just a minute. Killing her baby did NOTHING to enrich Sarah's life. NOTHING. She didn't attend college, because she didn't want to. She didn't get some type of high level job. The best job she ever had was a brief stint clerking at a hotel. She didn't travel. All she got out of it is a dead baby, the knowledge that her maternal grandparents died without ever really forgiving her and knowing that someday she's going to have to face the baby that she killed. So tell me now how much good getting that abortion did for her. BTW, no, Sarah would NOT have turned to drugs if she had had the baby. She doesn't have an addictive personality.

RedheadEmber

But did Sarah's decision make her life worse? That's the real question. And you don't know if she has to face the baby, coz you don't know if there's an afterlife!

And even if your sister would've raised the baby I still think Sarah would'v been somewhat emotionally tied to it.

And G0lden, that's exactly it, isn't it? Your grandfather wasn't expecting to get grandchildren or great-grandchildren, instead he was, I assume, pleasantly surprised when he did get those.

Embala

Quote:
And you don't know if she has to face the baby, coz you don't know if there's an afterlife!

That's exactly the point why this discussion at the current level will not lead to any sort of agreement. Your POVs are total opposites.

What I get is that Lonetree believes in an afterlive, believes that the conceived child has a soul and is a human being from the very beginning. True to her believe she KNOWS that it is so. Their family embraced and loved the BABY from the first moment they knew about - from this POV it was killing.

Others here have a more biological/scientifical look at the matter. The embryo/fetus is NOT YET a human being but for a certain time something that WILL BECOME a baby when it grows. In this case you can decide not to let it grow (and I don't say that it is an easy decision or should be made lighthearted).

Considering this I can understand how Lonetree feels about the "unneccessary" decision of her niece. It is a personal tragedy for the whole family - just like it is a personal tragedy when a family breaks because a baby is carried to terms against the will of the family. I don't share her strong beliefs, though.


The following doesn't claim to be some kind of absolute truth - it's just how I see things for myself.

Should abortion be considered as a sort of birth control? NEVER. Sorry, but when a woman thinks this is an adequate option I wish her that it will hurt like hell in case!
Should financial problems be a reason for abortion? NO ... but sadly they are. Crucent made some valid points.
Are there great examples to manage a sitiution without getting an abortion - in financial crises, extreme youth of the mother, even rape and carrying a not viable baby? THERE ARE - and they are admirable!

Neither positive nor negative examples (not even abuse of the system) should force anyone in one or the other direction, though. All I really know is the following: In exactly the same situation under exactly the same circumstances there will be not "only one right" decision - there is no absolutely right or wrong. Being right or wrong lies in mind and heart of the one who is affected most - and that is the woman. One person can handle a situation quite well ... while it is unthinkable for another. And even the same woman might decide differently in retrospect or when it should happen more than once.

Pressing the pregnant woman/girl to give birth is as wrong as pressing her into an abortion. Give her all advice, all information and all possible help to enable her to decide pro-life ... and then let HER decide. No need to cause her a bad conscience before or after - those who take the decicion serious will have to deal enough with it - and the others you won't reach anyway.
And when there is an abortion - make it as soon as possible, not neccessarily at the very end of the legally allowed time frame. For me it has to be before those parts of the brain, which control more than the basic organic functions and reflexes have been developed and connected to the body. When I understand it right this will happen after the first 3 month (or is it twelve weeks?) an abortion is legal here. Beyond this it should be a case-by-case decision when the physical or mental/psychic health of the mother is severely endangered.


And to avoid all this drama for most cases - give women and girls early knowledge about and access to adequate birth control!

RedheadEmber

But why was it a tragedy for Lonetree's family? To me it still seems as if her parents felt as if they had some "divine right" to become great-grandparents. (And she felt the same about becoming a great-aunt.)

Lonetree. No amount of disliking Sarah will change anything. Done is done, which means that both you and your sister just need to get over it!

Embala

When I take - what I think is - Lonetree's POV the tragedy is that someone in her family has not only decided to killed her baby (how Lonetree believes and feels it doesn't really matter whether it is a 12 weeks old fetus or a newborn) but killed it despite every support was offered and would have been given. For Sarah's family the baby's death was both unneccessary by objective reasons and an violation of anything the (majority of) the family is believing in.

The fact that the possible great-grand-parents lost her (in retrospect) only chance is just one more drop that makes the rift wider and the bitterness stick deep. It's not so much that they claimed a right to become great-grand-parents ... for them they already were great-grand-parents from the very first moment and were looking forward to meet the little one. And then the grandchild they loved for 15 years has not just lost this baby and but destroyed both new life and this chance by purpose.

You might be right by looking at it with the eyes of reason ... and I would wish for Lonetree, Sarah and the whole family that they will be able to get over it - better sooner than later. Sadly this is not about reason at first degree.


Believe me - I know meanwhile that reason doesn't help when you are hurt deep within your feelings. My brother destroyed something that was dear for me, probably by accident and for sure within the anger of a bad-mood-day and it's so damned hard to get over it.
And I KNOW that "my case" is totally unimportant when I look at it reasonably, even ridiculous for others - and I KNOW that it was nothing I had a right to claim, - and I even could do it again (just my joy of doing it is "killed" not the possibility, - and I KNOW it is bad for the family and even worse for me to stick with it. And nevertheless I'm dealing with this damned bitterness for about 18 month now ... and it will take even longer, no matter that I'm working on my attitude towards it. It doesn't help a &*%$ that I KNOW it's not reasonable.


To make it clear - I don't judge whether what happened within Lonetree's family doesn't matter or is unreasonable from the POV of an outsider. I only say that it is hard to hold reason over feeling when you are hit at a sensible spot ... and it's almost impossible to argue with "reasons of science" against "reasons of belief". (Sorry ... hard to express it right in English)


But we started to discuss Lonetree and her family matters instead of the topic in general. I will not go on here before she shows up again.

G0lden

Here's another take on Sarah's family and the decision of a 15 yr old having an abortion. As Embala has said earlier that the family may believe in a afterlife. I think that a very large majority of us believe in an afterlife, so with that in mind. If God (Or whatever you want to call him or it or whatever, you get the point) is supposed to be the only one who can judge us for our actions during our life. If that is the case, then Sarah will be judged after she passes as will the family be judged for their own actions in regards to her decision.



So this takes me back to what I wrote earlier. An abortion is between a woman, her doctor, and her god. Plain and simple. Abortion should be made available with no questions asked or unreasonable restrictions. This also applies to birth control, which be made readily available with no questions or unreasonable restrictions. Men really need to get their noses out of women's issues and just get over it. When every child in this world has a safe home, good food, and education, then and only then can we have a discussion on the merits of abortions or birth control.

Lonetree

Hugs to you, Embala! At least one person here understands how much pain Sarah's "choice" cost my family, and how much bitterness resulted from it. It's one thing to lose a child naturally. My sister miscarried her second child and was an emotional wreck from it, but she and the rest of us grieved and moved on. My mother's second child (a boy) was stillborn after a normal pregnancy and that was even more devastating. Again, though she and my father grieved and moved on. In each case it was a natural death and it brought people closer together in their shared grief. There was nothing natural about Sarah's abortion and it certainly didn't bring my family together.



For those who tell me "just get over it", look at it another way. Suppose a stranger had walked up to Sarah when she was 13 weeks pregnant and shot or stabbed her in the abdomen in such a way that she survived but the baby was killed instantly. Would you be telling me to get over it or would you say that I have every right to be angry at the person who did such a thing? Why, then, should the fact that it was SARAH who instigated the death have any bearing whatsoever on how I feel about the loss?



I don't believe in abortion as birth control, which sadly is the majority of abortions in America today. People keep throwing hard cases like rape, deformity and mother's health around like they were the whole reason for abortion. Do a little research for yourself, and see just how rarely abortions are done for those reasons!

G0lden

Sadly the state that this world is currently in, there is a need for birth control and abortions. If you don't believe in either then that is your business, but do not force others to believe as you do. If having a child is difficult for you then you should consider adoption, if you don't like the current laws pretaining to a legal adaption then work to get those laws changed.



There is also a great need for loving foster parents. In many cases the foster parents can adopt their foster children with greater ease than all out adoption.

RedheadEmber

But still, Lonetree; you say Sarah was being egoistical, mainly for "not allowing your parents to have great grand-children. I'm gonna asume two things here: 1: You parents were old when it happened! ie, they knew it was heading towards the end for them. 2: Sarah was their oldest grandchild.

If they were counting on a 15-year-old girl (because you really aren't a woman when you're 15!) to fulfill their dream of having great-grandchildren who was then the egotistical ones?

And I don't really think your example applies. What happened was Sarah choosing for herself what should happen with her own body. In your example it would've been someone else taking control over what happened to her body. I agree with the notion that forcing someone to abort (and stabbing someone who's 13-week-pregnant in the abdomen is a rather grotesque form of 'forced abortion!) is just as bad as forcing someone to keep the child.



About the possibilities of an afterlife. I honestly don't care what happens! Heck! Maybe we gets reincarnated. Which could mean that "Sarah's baby" is currently living somewhere with a pair of living parents who really is his/her parents, not the grandparents raising their grandchild because they forced their 15-year-old daughter to go through with her pregnancy so her grandparents could have great-grandchildren.

And if we go to Heaven then maybe the child is looking down at you right now telling his her "mommy" that it's okay, telling you people to please not hate "mommy" and being in the care of a pair of very loving great-grandparents.

Lonetree

Redhead Ember, I have explained this again and again and again. The minute Sarah got pregnant they already WERE great-grandparents. Sarah chose to put an end to that. And please point where the word egotistical was ever used? Self-centered, yes. And do a little historical research. For centuries it was the norm for women to start families in their teens. This notion that 15 year olds aren't physically capable of having babies safely is a modern myth. Emotionally mature, that's another matter. 15 year olds today are a far cry from 15 year olds of a century ago, and it is not a change for the better...

And you're missing my point entirely on another matter. IT DOESN'T MATTER WHO KILLED THE BABY! Am I getting through yet? The end result is the same, and the anger and bitterness is directed towards the person who tore our family apart. And I am SICK TO DEATH of people pretending that there aren't TWO BODIES involved in abortion. Your right to make decisions about your body stops the minute another body is involved. And spare me the inane violinist argument. That was debunked ages ago.

G0lden

I sit here shaking my head at the inane manner this arguement has become and a sudden inspitation hit. I just asked my 30 yr old son. The question. If a young immature 15 yr became pregnant. Does the family have the right to insist that she have the baby so a set of grandparents could become great grandparents?" He answer. NO! Absolutely not. His reason, Most 15 yr olds are clueless about raising a child and that we as a society have been over sexualizing our children for far too long. A 15 yr old is a child, not an adult. The main reason we have so many issues with the break down of families is this exact reason. To many children having children and not having the resources to raise them in a manner that will allow them to become productive adults.



If you must know my 30 yr old, is not a father yet. Someday it may happen, but he is not ready for marriage even at this point in his life. Yes, he believes abortions and brith control should be readily available. He also feels that too many families are more concerned with their own wants and desires, and not it the best interests of their children. Example: Parents pushing their kids in sports, or beauty pagaents. The list could go on and it could include families trying to get a young girl to have a baby, so someone can have braggin rights of being a great grandparent.



Remember I am a child of a teen mother. My mother didn't understand the value of life until she was 32. She had family support once I was born, but she never got her high school diploma. My mother is a bright, witty woman, who is a member of MENZA. She has been a beautician since I was 3, her income hasn't risen in more than 30 yrs. She makes less than I do when I am working. The only thing she really has managed to accomplish is that her home is bought and paid for. So as you can see a child born to a 15 in 1961, is not much better off than a child born to a 15 yr of today. The only difference is: abortions are safe and legal. If my greatmother had her way, my mother would have ended up having an illegal abortion. That is the scary part.



For those who would like to know. MY father has been out of my life more that he has been in it. He exact words to me when I was 16 were: If it was today and I found out your mom was pregnant I would have been long gone, I would have never married her. He told me that in 1977. The pill was out for maybe 10 yrs at that point. Abortions became legal in this country only a few short years earlier.

sulken

Please stop this Lonetree-bashing, already. As much as her niece had the right to decide what will happen to the foetus (yes, Lonetree will disagree), as much has she and everyone in her family the right to despise Sarah for her decision. They are totally free to do so! They are not supposed to support Sarah if they don't feel like it. They are free to think and feel about her or anyone else in this world as they want.
Apparently, family-ties and raising children means a lot for Lonetree's family, maybe more than to most families today. This doesn't not mean Sarah, in my opinion, had less of a choice than other women/girls, but it enables us to understand the family-situation better.

Also, as Embala pointed out, this discussion will lead to nowhere. There are to different viewpoints and there is no way one will 'convince' the other with arguments. It's equally idle to talk about afterlife and what might happen there (if at all). Has anyone of you been there? Guess no.

I still don't think abortion is a common kind of lazy birth-control. It's much easier, and cheaper, to use condoms or swallow a pill every night.
If I became pregnant, even though I never have sex without protection, I would have an abortion. Yes, I might be able to rise the baby despite being a student with no job, but I prefer not to. Yes, it would be no abortion with a 'hard case reason', it would be a sort of birth-control because everything else failed.

Vojira

...Good lords, I'm happy I live in Denmark.
The notion of women just ignoring birth controle and having abotions any time they've had sex and gotten pregnant, actually disturbes me. Don't abortions cost anything? (Sure, from what I've just been told, abortions are free in Denmark, but I thought it would be expensive in countries that have such strong ties to religion, such as USA.)
Personally, I don't want a child. Ever. If I ever did get pregnant and I wanted an abortion, then I would get one.
And if I got some fanatic pro-lifer to stand in front of me and started screaming 'You can't do that! God forbids it!You can't kill that baby!' in their angry 'I'm right! You have NO mental ability to have opinons! You're wrong no matter'-voice, I would knock that person to the damn ground for daring to try to force their will on me.

My blunt opinion on abortion?
It's a woman's body for hell's sake. Let it be her choice.

If she's a freaking child herself and has gotten preggers from her first few first tries/idiotic boyfriend who doesn't wants use rubber, and she's in no way able to take care of a child, and she's only a few weeks into the pregnantsy, let her have the damn abortion.

A pregnant girl's status in school can be utterly ripped apart because the kids nowadays seem to think 'Eh, she's preggers. She must be a slut. Let's treat her like trash.'
If the fetus is a threat to either the mental or physical health of the mother, get it aborted or removed from the person carring it.
Rape? Get it aborted if that's what you want.
If the whole 'ignore birth control and get lot's of abortions' thing is true...
'What the hell is wrong with you?'

I have to say that the thing that actually disturbs me the most post 17.
It's troubled me so much I've had to talk it over with 7 different people to see if my first reaction of utter disbelife and disgust over Lonetree and her familiy's behavior was the right thing to feel.
And from what I've heard it is.

Quote:

Please stop this Lonetree-bashing, already.

You'll have to forgive me, but what she' been posting and how she's been reacting to other peoples posts, she's basically demanding people to fall in line. And I can't do that because I feel her and her family's behavior the worst thing I've ever heard.


Quote:

I'm actually glad that she lives in another state.


Quote:

I'm glad she lives in another state too. I hate to think how she would feel if she had to handle condemnation on top of that level of personal crisis. Her family should be giving her emotional support, not attacking her on a personal level.

I'm going to agree with Lunakat on this. It would have be horrible for the girl to live with relatives who would react like you did.
You seriously make you and the rest of you family stand out as victims of some truly horrible and monsterous crime and complete ignore the fact that a 15 year old girl had to go through an abortion.
Quote:

and it certainly didn't bring my family together.

Huh. Seems to me the utter hated and bitterness of her and her actions it did bring you all together.

I've seriosly talked this over with lot's of people and they all agree your niece isn't the monster here.
It's you and your family.
I'm sure as hell that behavior wouldn't be accepted as 'right' here in Denmark. It just speaks of the family being utterly selfish.
'We want to be great-grandparents! Just give us the child and shove off.'

I'm damn happy I live in Denmark.

In cases where the woman is far into the pregnancy: Have the child and then put it up for adoption.

RedheadEmber

Quote:


Redhead Ember, I have explained this again and again and again. The minute Sarah got pregnant they already WERE great-grandparents. Sarah chose to put an end to that. And please point where the word egotistical was ever used? Self-centered, yes. And do a little historical research. For centuries it was the norm for women to start families in their teens. This notion that 15 year olds aren't physically capable of having babies safely is a modern myth. Emotionally mature, that's another matter. 15 year olds today are a far cry from 15 year olds of a century ago, and it is not a change for the better...







No! Your parents viewed themselves as being great-grandparents!

And even though girls used to have babies in their teens that doesn't mean it's a good idea! Back in those days girls rarely got an education! What's changed is that girls nowadays are expected to do something with their lives not just get married.



And no matter how it happened (it did happen the legal way!) there comes a time when you just have to move on. Does resenting Sarah bring the child back? No! She doesn't need resenting, she needs support! What if she had decided from the beginning that she wanted to keep the child but unfortunately had a spontanious abort? Then I suppose there would've been no end to the support you'd shown her!

Have you tried asking Sarah how she felt about having to make such a choice? To me it honestly seems as if you just decided that she was a bad girl without thinking about how she felt.

Embala

Quote:


No! Your parents viewed themselves as being great-grandparents!





They did - because they built an emotional link to the unborn. Would you negate this possibility? Would you say a woman/girl who builds such an emotional link is NOT a mother? Unhappy

G0lden

I keep seeing the mention of emtional ties to an unborn, whether it be the young mother herself or a set of would be great grandparents. Something just struck me, in many cases Lonetree has mentioned that several memebers of the family had offered to care for the baby until the young mother was ready to step in. It was also mentioned that these same family memebers tragically lost babies themselves. So lets go with this hypothensis. said 15 yr old carries the child to term and said family member cares for the child for 2 or 3 yr, maybe even longer. The family member that took in this child has lost one of their own children. A few years down the road said 15 yr is now 18 or so, and she then goes to those family members to get her baby back. Despite the promise of we'll help until you are ready, will completely disappear. The family members that took in this child would now have invested much time, enegry, and love to raise this child. If you think they will just hand over this child to it's rightful mother, think again. They will fight to keep that child. Which would tear the family apart.





So here we stand now, but the circumstances are far different. A 15 yr old became pregnant and had an abortion and it tore the family apart. If she had agreed to family pressure and had the child, only to have another family member care for it until she could do it for herself. The family would still be torn apart, because the family member that has cared for this child would view it as their own and fight to keep the child. That young mother deserved to be loved and supported for her choice by her entire family, not villified because she chose to have an abortion. Either way she went in her decision her family was torn apart. If she had that child, it would not replace the ones that were lost.



I think that is what has gotten everyone so upset over this whole 15 yr old having an abortion. The family members that offered to care for the child had lost one of their own due to whatever reason there was to lose a child. Maybe, just maybe this young lady came to the realization that the reason why everyone in the family was pushing her to keep the baby, so they could replace one that they lost.



It's just something to think about.

Lonetree

To Vojira: So you ran off and told YOUR version (which I have a feeling has NOTHING to do with the reality of the matter) to seven other like-minded people? Who naturally agreed with you? Wow, color me amazed. Frankly, my dear, I don't give a damn. And if you're going to resort to insults and name-calling, please don't bother talking to me any further, okay?

Vojira

Like minded? Nope. My version? Nope. I showed them your post. That's all.

Trollbabe

Quote:
But, just a question to everyone here: How can you be pro-life if you go around killing abortion doctors? Don't they have a life as well?





I don't recall when the practice of picketing abortion clinics began, but it really was a bad idea. I am sorry it led to violence. It certainly does not represent those who are "pro-life." Laws are made and changed in Washington and in state capitols. That is where people should go if they want to demonstrate. BTW there are two abortion clinics within a few miles of where I live. I am careful not to cut across the property, or even walk behind it, because they have "No Trespassing" signs posted, and also out of coutesy.



GOlden, if I read your posts correctly, you assert that "Men really need to get their noses out of women's issues and just get over it." Then you asked your thrity-year-old son his opinion on the matter?

G0lden

Sure did Trollbabe and for a good reason too. He is obviously old enought to know better and old enough to know how. He feels an abortion is a woman's choice and man should not interfere under any circumstances. He also showed that he takes all things into account before he gives his opinion on any subject. If he had a girlfriend that decided on an abortion, on the one hand it would sadden him that she made that choice, but he would support her choice with no questions asked. As he told me later on that morning. For a young woman to have an abortion must be one of the hardest decisions anyone could make. He doesn't envy the position that the young woman may find herself in regarding an abortion. His position is that any woman who has an abortion deserves unconditional love and support from her family and friends. To villify a young woman because she had an abortion to him is just plain wrong and uncalled for.

Startear

Alright, I have now read every single post in this thread. And I have some things to say myself in this. Now, I have a friend who like Sarah became pregnant at the tender age of fifteen. Unlike your niece, she decided to keep the baby. I admire my friend for choosing that path, especially when I look at how the people around her has treated her. She has been ridiculed not only online but straight to her face.

Pardon me if I’m wrong, Lonetree but it seems to me that you are not considering how though the decision to keep a child or not is, regardless of how much support the woman/teenager receives. It may be that you did not pressure her to have the child, but she most probably felt like it anyhow. You said yourself that Sarah has not finished her education, and never got a better job that working as a hotel clerk. For me that just proves what my experience has told me; going through pregnancy and deciding when ether or not to keep the child is a mental strain.

After making her decision, Sarah did not receive support because it did not go the way you wanted. Now that does not equal to my view of being supportive. Of course you are right to grieve and not do so, but I still find it bad taste.

Another thing that I have to add is that you are unfair towards Vojira thinking that her friends are like-minded. Does all of your friends have similar opinion as you?

Lonetree

Let me try one last time to make this clear to everyone. Sarah killed her baby. Said act goes against everything my parents and I believe in. It hurt our family unimaginably. AND YOU SIT THERE AND EXPECT ME TO SUPPORT HER FOR IT???? How unrealistic is that? You may as well ask me to say to a rapist, "Poor baby, I understand. Your body, your choice. It's just collateral damage that a woman got hurt in the process." It ain't gonna happen, folks.

As for my sister not giving the baby back, if Sarah had had it. Not a chance. First of all, she would have raised the baby as her GRANDCHILD, not her child. Secondly, giving it back to Sarah would not have deprived of her knowing the child. Sarah has never lived more than two towns away from her mother, and at the moment the two of them live across from each other on the same lot, Sarah in the house she grew up in and my sister and her husband in the smaller house they built and moved into.

And the baby being a replacement for the babies that were lost? Puh-leeze! That baby was loved and wanted by the rest of the family for itself.

Would we have supported Sarah if she had miscarried instead of aborted? Hell yes. Big difference between losing a child and killing it, y'know?

Sarah not going to college because of the abortion? (at least I think that's the point you were trying to make) She never had an interest in attending college. It's not the be-all and end-all of life for everyone, hard as that may be to believe. And if the abortion HAD been the reason for her not attending, wouldn't it stand to reason that it would have been better for her to NOT have had it?

Startear

How can you be so sure that it would have been better if she had made a different choice?

RedheadEmber

Eeeh... quick question Lonetree (actually two.):



1: where's the "would-be father" in all this? Shouldn't you be just as mad (if not more) at him? After all; it does take two people to become pregnant. And, as far as I'm concerned you do not know exactly what happened when she became pregnant. Maybe it was him who preassured her into not using protection. And even if it wasn't shouldn't he have been more insistant in using it? (Or maybe they were using it but it just rubtured.)



2: Why did she have to wait as long as she did to get her abortion?



Also even though you'd have loved the baby, eeerhm were you the ones who'd have to go through a pregnancy and childbirth?



Let me get this straight: You'd have supported Sarah if she'd gone through the hell of miscarriage but because she had to make the decision of getting an abortion you're instead putting her in hell!

lunakat

Embala... where does it say the girl waited? I can't find any mention of that.

Lonetree- the point isn't that your cousin justified her abortion by going to college or doing something amazing with her life. The point is... she wasn't ready to be a mom, and she made that decision because she wasn't ready. She was fifteen, and she didn't want to be a parent. It's sad that she had to make that decision, and it's a sad thing that you are so angry at her and so resentful. I don't know what else there is to say about this situation... because we all agree she had the legal right to make that decision.

As to whether a person thinks it's morally right- that's up to the individual to decide. Either way, I can tell you it's a difficult process, and whatever decision a person has made in that situation, they still deserve the love and support of their family.

What I find offensive is your complete lack of compassion and the self centered way you view the whole thing. 'My family wanted that baby' and 'My grandparents wanted a great grandchild.' Well- too bad. It's not your life. It's not your parents' life. It's not your grandparent's life. They had their kids. They grew up, lived the lives they did- and they are done. You can live your life however you want and have your own kids. But Sarah doesn't owe it to you to give you what you want in that regard- any of you. She has to do right by herself, and I'm glad she did.

The way you talk about raising the baby also floors me. 'Of course' this is how it would have gone- 'Of course,' your sister would have happily cared for another infant while Sarah grew up enough to finally assume custody. Well... sorry, but I can't believe it would have been that easy. Raising a child is a lifelong commitment, and it's a very expensive, emotionally challenging and intense commitment. Sure, there are rewards- but all in all, it's a lot of hard work. And you can never walk away from it. You talk about raising that baby as if it would have been an idyllic experience for everyone... but your family can't even come together to help Sarah now that she's done something they disagree with. I doubt they would have been able to work together properly with a child involved... and either way, it would have impacted Sarah's life forever, significantly.

I really hope she recovers from the ordeal- and that her family matures enough to care about her again. I sincerely hope you are exaggerating when you describe the reactions of your mom and dad, sister and grandparents.

As far as the baby is concerned.. if Sarah had an abortion in the United States, she should have done so within the first twelve weeks. That's the allowable time. The baby is still a developing fetus- it's not a baby yet. Most natural miscarriages occur during this time period- for a reason. After thirteen weeks in, you aren't supposed to have an abortion, except for medical necessity, because there is a viable baby inside you. From my perspective, she didn't 'kill her baby'- she had an abortion. She decided not to have a baby. Two different things.

Embala

Quote:

Embala... where does it say the girl waited? I can't find any mention of that.

I'd like to answer your question, lunakat - but I actually don't get what you are refering to. Help, please?

G0lden

If there had been a child involved, there would be been more fighting. I mean come on. This is not Fantasy Island, it's real life here. There are so many families that have assisted young mothers that have ended badly. Reason why when the young mom is ready to take care of her own child, the family member that has cared for the child already has an emtional tie to the baby, not to mention the funds spent, long nights up with a colicy baby, etc. The resentment towards that young mother would have unbelievable. I can see it now. Daugther: Geez mom I'm ready to take the baby now. Grandma: Not on your life, I took care of that baby, not you!.



This sort of thing happens all the time. Even if the child was being raised as a grandchild, unless mom is in picture most of the time, that baby will grandma is mama. I have serious doubts that this young lady was prepared in any way to become a mother at such a young age. If she had the baby, as soon as she was able she would have been gone from the picture, running around as a typical teen with no responsiblities. The baby would have been out of sight and out of mind and grandma would have been completely responsible for caring for that baby. Again resentment rears it's ugly head. Resentment towards a young immature woman for not trying to be a parent.



I think the family needs to seriously consider the fact that this young lady did them a favor by having the abortion. The only thing I find sad is that there is such anger towards her because she chose an abortion. What happened to unconditional love? Seems to me that this family had conditions in order to receive love.

Lonetree

Oh, screw it, all of you. I have tried again and again and again to make you understand, but you've swallowed the poison too thoroughly. Life means NOTHING to any of you. And you will NEVER understand the pain my family went through, unless you suffer it yourselves.

I will leave you this final thought. Since the woman's right to her body seems to be the most important thing to you, you need to drop this nonsense of "no abortion after 12 weeks" or "no abortion after viability". To believe that is to negate the woman's right to her body. You MUST support abortion all the way to labor. After all the fetus isn't HUMAN until it's travelled those six magic inches. Once it exits the body, a MIRACLE occurs and a useless bundle of cells is now completely human. Therefore, a woman has the right to abort at any time during the pregnancy that she wants, for ANY reason that she wants. She's going on the vacation of a lifetime in three months and wants to be able to still fit in her clothes? No problem. Part of her job is schmoozing with clients, including playing tennis and going to bars, and a baby would interfere with that? Go for it! If you say otherwise, if you try and place restrictions on abortions for time or reasons, then you really don't care about the woman's right to her body at all. You're just following the example of so many others in history, deciding that certain members of the human race are less worthy of life than others. Gee, now WHERE have I heard that particular riff before?

Vojira

Quote:



My mother became pregnant with me at age 14. My grandmother was going to force her to have an abortion. My mother, despite being so young decided to talk to her cousin who was 9 yrs older. This cousin was very wise for a young woman of only 23 yrs of age. She advised my mother that an abortion was not a very good idea and that my grandmother had no right to force her to have an abortion. My mother chose to have me, only to have my grandmother try to throw her out of the house. Thankfully my grandfather stepped in, he remembered his days as a young man and he himself had to worry if a young lady he was with became pregnant. He refused to allow my grandmother to throw my mother out of the house. My mother had me at 15. My father did marry her a 14 1/2 yr, but the marriage didn't last. Now here is where this whole situation could have been avoided to begin with. Unlike the girls of today or when I started to mature into a young woman, my grandmother never gave my mother the frank talk about sex and how babies are made. You got it, my mother found out the hard way that the great deal of fun she had with my father had a consequence and that consequence became me. So if my mother knew this information to begin with her life may have been very different. As to whether or not I would have been born in the long run, I wouldn't hazard a guess.

May I ask you a question, G0lden? Knowing you grandmother wanted you terminated, how was your relationship with her? Did you and your mother have contact with her? (Of course I don't know how old she would been you where told about this kind of thing)

I'm just curios.

G0lden

When my mother's marriage broke up before the birth of my younger brother (Mom had him at 17). We lived with my grandparents until my mom remarried when I was 6 yrs of age. My mother and grandmother had a rather odd relationship to say the least. One the one hand she loved my grandmother very much, but she didn't like my grandmother's behavior towards my brother and I.



I think part of that had to do not only with my mother becoming pregnant at such a young age, but also for one other reason. My mother used to play the Marimba (It's related to a Xylophone, but has wooden keys),when she was younger and was really good at it too. Story goes my mother was offered a job at about 14 to play for some well known orchestra in Southern California. My mother turned down the offer and I guess got pregnant with me soon afterwards. I know my grandmother was very disappointed that my mom made that choice. Also my grandmother tended to treat my mother more like a maid when she was young. If my mom was too sick to go to school, my grandmother expected her clean the house while she was ill.



Interestingly enough, my uncle was never treated in that manner, he got drafted into the Army, worked his way in up a major corp, and didn't want any children. That is until the wife put her foot down and demanded a baby or the marriage was over. My grandmother thought my uncle was the ends all be all, including his tow daughters. My uncle also didn't push his kids into having a relationship with my grandmother either, which my mother did.



I think she did that because she felt my grandmother expected it and actually hoped we could have a decent relationship. To be honest with you, she did expect it, but here is where it gets kinda of weird. My younger brother was my grandmother's favorite and let it be known that he was her favorite. I learned very early not to interfere with her relationship with my brother. I loved my grandmother, but some of the things she would say to me were uncalled for and down mean. Examples of this: If I had my way, your mother would have gotten the abortion. Your mother should have taken that job, but she had to get pregnant.



Now I was in my twenties when my grandmother mentioned that she pushed for my mother to have an abortion. Needless to say I asked my mother and she told me the entire story. As everyone pretty much knows here on the forum I was born with mild to moderate Rubella Sydrome Birth Defects. Up to that point in my life I beleived that my family accepted me as I was, boy was I wrong. Of course my mom, step dad, my grandfather, and my late great grandma did, but my grandmother didn't. She resented having to deal with the drs and travel to San Francisco every six mos, which eventually became once a yr. Hell, she just flat out resented anything that had to do with me. I finally gave up on having a close relationship with her in my 20's, which is about the same age my mother did too.



Oddly enough when my grandpa's health began to fail, it was my mother who helped to care for him. My uncle lived only 20 mins away, couldn't be bothered. My mom worked all day and then traveled for an hr to their home and care for him, just to drive an hr back, work, etc. When he passed my grandma lived by herself for a few yrs until my brother moved o her home to care for her. Once her health began to noticably fail, my mom moved her into her home and cared for her until she had to be placed in a nursing home. For the two yrs my grandma was in a nursing home, my mother visited every single day up to the night before she died. My uncle rarely ever saw her.



So I hope that answers your question Luna.



As for me I have a close relationship with my mom, we live just 3 mi from each other. I knew about the facts of lire when I was 11 and I was allowed to read any material about brith control and what not. Although she wasn't too thrilled that I got married at 18 and had my first child at 19, she accepted it with grace. When my marriage ended she supported my decision and helped out. Of course she is better at being a grandma the second time around. She was in her 30's when my boys were born and her 50's when my nephews came along, but that has more to do with having more ease at the grandma thing due to her being older.



@ Lonetree, everyone is hearing what you are saying. What they don't get is the lack of unconditional love that Sarah should have gotten. And if you are going to talk about pain, here's a news flash for you. Try the pain from being poked and prodded by drs from the time you are born. Try having a young mother being told by a dr to insitutionalized her daugther because she won't amount to anything (Me). Try being pregnant with twins and losing one. Try having a preemie and then he has 3 major operations before he is even 6 mos old. As you can see pain comes in many forms. Sorry to tell you this, but your pain isn't the only one out there. It is all how you handle it. You can chose to wallow in your own misery or you can chose to move on with life and what if offers you. I choose the later. Life is too precious to wallow in misery.

Vojira

Eh, I'm Vojira? (unless I missed Luna asking a similar question,sorry. )
But yes, it does give me a very good look into the mind of person who had to live with a person she would rather have terminated.
You grandmother actually have said something like that just plainly scares me.
Thank you so much for sharing.

G0lden

Sorry brain fart. Must be getting old.

Vojira

XD no problem. Must be the avi colours.

G0lden

That maybe as well. I only see out of my left eye and it don't work so well either. Basically, warning blind lady on the forum.Laugh

Vojira

Oh dear.Laugh

G0lden

Yeah, blind in one eye and can't see out of the other. Makes for interesting adventures, especially in the grocery store and a shopping cart. If I'm doing really good, I miss all toes and heels. Laugh

lunakat

Quote:

Oh, screw it, all of you. I have tried again and again and again to make you understand, but you've swallowed the poison too thoroughly. Life means NOTHING to any of you. And you will NEVER understand the pain my family went through, unless you suffer it yourselves.

You have no idea whether any of us have experienced this. And chances are, we have.

Quote:
I will leave you this final thought. Since the woman's right to her body seems to be the most important thing to you, you need to drop this nonsense of "no abortion after 12 weeks" or "no abortion after viability". To believe that is to negate the woman's right to her body.

That's the law- the law says do it within twelve weeks.

Quote:
You MUST support abortion all the way to labor. After all the fetus isn't HUMAN until it's travelled those six magic inches. Once it exits the body, a MIRACLE occurs and a useless bundle of cells is now completely human. Therefore, a woman has the right to abort at any time during the pregnancy that she wants, for ANY reason that she wants.

You are kidding, right? A fetus goes through stages of development. At a certain point, it's too late.

Quote:
She's going on the vacation of a lifetime in three months and wants to be able to still fit in her clothes? No problem. Part of her job is schmoozing with clients, including playing tennis and going to bars, and a baby would interfere with that? Go for it! If you say otherwise, if you try and place restrictions on abortions for time or reasons, then you really don't care about the woman's right to her body at all. You're just following the example of so many others in history, deciding that certain members of the human race are less worthy of life than others. Gee, now WHERE have I heard that particular riff before?

Maybe you should try being a little less self righteous. No one is that shallow.

lunakat

BTW, lonetree, do you know why everyone disagrees with you? It's because we all believe that you are wrong. And I'm guessing you are either too young or just too naive and inexperienced to really understand why.

RedheadEmber

Actually, Lonetree. From what you wrote that Sarah lives as close to her parents as she does it seems as if at least they have forgiven her. Maybe you should follow their prime example and do the same, after all they are the ones who would've become grandparents whereas you only would've become a great-aunt.

How long is it since it happened anyway?



And you haven't answered my questions: Where's the "father" and why did she have to wait as long as she did to get her abortion?

G0lden

Ouch! Luna you are in a mood tonight.



I myself couldn't imagine carrying all that anger for so long. For one thing it ages you. Life is far too short to be angry for a choice that was made some time ago. It is far better to forgive and get on with life.

Vojira

Guys, I have a question. The whole thing about women ignoring birth control and just having abortions numerous times is still bugging me...
How much do abortions cost where you're from?
(Yes, it's actually bugging me for the wrong reasons.But I do find it...disturbing.)

lunakat

Okay- sorry about the posts earlier- I was in a really bad mood last night and not editing myself. I went back and edited my comments.\

Quote:

Guys, I have a question. The whole thing about women ignoring birth control and just having abortions numerous times is still bugging me...

This is a myth. People don't use abortion in place of birth control. People have abortions because birth control failed.

Quote:
How much do abortions cost where you're from?
(Yes, it's actually bugging me for the wrong reasons.But I do find it...disturbing.)

Look at it this way- the pill, without insurance, is $40 per month... with insurance, it can be as low as $10 per month. An abortion, on the expensive end, can cost about $550- $1000, but if you have no insurance and no money Planned Parenthood will do it for $350. Who in their right mind would pay $350 each month instead of $40?

Also- it's an uncomfortable and painful experience- and it takes two or three weeks to recover from it. You can't have sex for two weeks after you have an abortion- and you are bleeding that whole time.

The notion that women are running around willy nilly using abortion like birth control is utterly absurd- because it is so impractical it doesn't make any sense.
It's a myth propagated by anti-abortionits. Much like the idea that people have late term abortions as common practice- you aren't legally allowed to do that in this country. You have to have your abortion within the first three months- unless there is some crazy medical issue.

I do know someone who had a late term abortion... she was trying to have a kid, but something went terribly wrong with the developing fetus, and they had to abort it. She was devastated, but knew it had to be done. They injected something to kill the baby, then removed it. I think they may have induced premature labor. This was a horrible experience for her... but later on, she became pregnant again and now has a healthy little boy.

Vojira

Quote:


This is a myth. People don't use abortion in place of birth control. People have abortions because birth control failed.





Look at it this way- the pill, without insurance, is $40 per month... with insurance, it can be as low as $10 per month. An abortion, on the expensive end, can cost about $550- $1000, but if you have no insurance and no money Planned Parenthood will do it for $350. Who in their right mind would pay $350 each month instead of $40?

Also- it's an uncomfortable and painful experience- and it takes two or three weeks to recover from it. You can't have sex for two weeks after you have an abortion- and you are bleeding that whole time.



The notion that women are running around willy nilly using abortion like birth control is utterly absurd- because it is so impractical it doesn't make any sense.

It's a myth propagated by anti-abortionits. Much like the idea that people have late term abortions as common practice- you aren't legally allowed to do that in this country. You have to have your abortion within the first three months- unless there is some crazy medical issue.



You have idea how good it is to hear that.It really freaked me out the first time I read it.

Then it struck me as completely idiotic.

I mean, that's a lot of money. How would a teenager be able to keep getting that much money?

And then there's the physical effects you mentioned.

Vojira

(Startear just made me notice this.)

Quote:
You're just following the example of so many others in history, deciding that certain members of the human race are less worthy of life than others. Gee, now WHERE have I heard that particular riff before?

Did you just compare us to the people that are universally considered to be worst people to have ever walked on the planet?
What?

Stormcatcher

@ Voji: Yeah, the human race...

That's what humans do when reason fails: Verdun, Stalingrad, Auschwitz, Nanking, Hiroshima, My Lai... to mention just parts of one century. No one is above cruelty in deed or thought.

Vojira

I was actually referring to those few famous people that outdo mankind as a whole.
Yeah, mankind is horrible. But there are some who, nowadays are considered to be the personification of evil.

Stormcatcher

I know. But that would open another volatile topic...

Vojira

Meeeeh. Volatile topic+Lots of posts= Should make the 'why so few are posting'-issue go away.
Personally, I just made post #85 because Startear asked me if I thought it meant the samething she did. I have no intentions of starting a discussion on wreathe mankind is...redeemable. Or 'good'.
Big_laugh

Trollbabe

I feel edged out by the generalizations about "we" and "us" and "everyone" and "all of you," so I'm going to set the topic aside for a moment and resort to my prickly sense of humor.



Elfquest #19 page 21:

"I can't be with you too, Fahr -- I"m sorry! It's all I can do to help these two cubs! And in, uh, lessee, two more moons, Dewshine will be MORE than one!"



BTW Stormcatcher, I did bring up the human race topic as a poll, but not as a thread.

Stormcatcher

@ Trollbabe: I wasn't actually thinking of your poll, rather than what would happen if we splitted off another discussion from this.

Vojira

Quote:


@ Trollbabe: I wasn't actually thinking of your poll, rather than what would happen if we splitted off another discussion from this.



Delicious arguments? 8D

I say do it. Dooooo it.

Trollbabe

Interesting idea, as this discussion was derived from yet another discussion.

G0lden

Oi, something else to argue about or is it discuss. Love the idea.

Trollbabe

Possibly, it's more in the line of "Masque" fandom.

Trollbabe

I didn't know whether to post this under "dreams", or this thread. I had a dream in which I was caring for a child whose parents had placed him in temporary foster care. He was tiny enough to fit in the palm of my hand, and looked more like some kind of invertebrate than a baby. I kept him warm and fed him, and took him everywhere I went. People seemed to not know he existed.

Then, one day, his head and body grew to newborn baby proportions, and he had big brown eyes. Suddenly, everybody wanted to look at him, fawn over him and treat him like an actual baby.

Startear

I have a question. The other day I realized something which I had never thought about before, or rather, an obervation. Most of the people I know who are so-called pro-life are in fact suporters of Death Penalty.

This seems rather illogical to me. For me the term pro-life means that the person thinks all life is sacred. I can understand that people think in those line, but not how someone can be pro-life and for Death Penalty at the same time.

Can someone explain this to me?

Vojira

Quote:

I have a question. The other day I realized something which I had never thought about before, or rather, an obervation. Most of the people I know who are so-called pro-life are in fact suporters of Death Penalty.

This seems rather illogical to me. For me the term pro-life means that the person thinks all life is sacred. I can understand that people think in those line, but not how someone can be pro-life and for Death Penalty at the same time.

Can someone explain this to me?

Maybe they simply can't connect the two as being the same thing?
To me, they seem to see a unborn child as a miracle or something equally great/good.

An death row inmate however, might symbolize everything bad to them.
Or they simply don't understand you can't go to one place and yell 'DO NOT KILL!' and then go to another and yell ' KILL KILL KILL!' without other people giving them looks.
(I donno. The behavior of humans gets confusing.)

Cascade

Startear, I think it has something to do with the fact that you have to be very convinced of your own truth to believe in either.



Really, really pro-life, means everything is allowed to make a baby get born. Whether it dies halfway the birth or immediately after is obviously far preferable than getting an abortion (what it does to the mother, ah, who cares?). Having no money to support your child is no reason - better it dies of hunger than an abortion. Of course I'm exaggerating, but it does take that kind of person.



Pro death sentence is much the same. An unalienable entitlement to vengeance and an absolute refusal to see that judges and juries can be wrong lead to this.

I mean, if you just see the proportion of black to white in death row, and of poor to rich, how on earth can you not be alarmed, even if you don't look any deeper than that? Some guys around here spent sixteen years in prison for horrible murders - and now DNA testing came along and revealed that as a matter of fact they were innocent. They couldn't possibly have done it. Yes, they confessed prior to their conviction - you don't think the cops can make you? I'm very glad they are still alive to be set free and get a generous excuse from the government. Not that that makes everything all right, but miles better than trying to make up to their widows.

Embala

That's a touching dream, Trollbabe - a dream that make think.

I can hardly contribute something to your question, Startear ...
... first I don't know whether "pro life* in this context goes along with "pro death penalty" more often than with the opposite attitude.
... second I cannot understand myself how these two opposites would fit together, no matter whether this happens often or rarely.

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