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Troll Quest discussion...

TrollHammer

Ok, since it came up out on the forums, I figured Id bring it up here where we can plot it in private.



What are your thoughts on a Troll Quest saga?



~As a fanfic

~As a Canon alternate story

~As a roll play

~As a (fillintheblank)



I have some of my own thoughts, but then Im a bit of an odd duck at times guaging what others like. Some such ideas have been included in a hybrid plot Quest Im currently fanfic writing, and Ill post them after a bit, but I want to hear your thoughts.



Key points:



Would it start with the proto trolls crashing the Palace?

What would be the goal of the Quest?

Would it have a parallel feel of ElfQuest, or spoof it.

Would it parallel Two-Edges meddling with the Trolls?

Would it better explain what the Trolls might have started out doing before their interests turned to greed, say what their mining and whatnot started out as, and perhaps what they needed the rock shapers for initially before just mining with them.

Would it just cover the history of the Trolls with nothing added (plenty of material)?

Would you be interested in participating in writing such a tale?



Thanks for your time!

Trollbabe

Good ideas. The first thing that comes to mind is the word "Quest." Would Trolls be motivated by the prospect of finding other communities of Trolls?

TrollHammer

Hmm... Some might, but more likely most would see it as a form of competition...

I have explored a little about what might motivate a Troll or band of such towards a common goal, and about the only things I coule come up with would be:

Revenge or one upping a common foe, such as Elves.

The promise of great riches or an easy life.

Slavery.

As far as actually doing a canon story, two of the tales I have always wanted more of are the actual establishment of the frozen mountain kingdom, the capture of the rock shapers, the trek to the wolfrider's forest (still a debate for me as to who was there first) and the civil war that split the Trolls. Plenty of material there, just would have to get some concensus on details.

The other story I want is a question of how things happened earlier... The palace crashed in a pretty temperate place, plants and animals abound, humans all over. Then either the palace was moved up north, or was always there and the poles were not cold until later. There are problems either way.

What would you like to see?

Trollbabe

As a Troll, I would be more motivated by promises of riches,and possibly an easier life. With too easy a life, you get to be a slacker like those Elves.



All morality aside, I think slavery is wasteful. If people don't have a motivation to work, it makes no sense to exhaust resources in forcing them to work, and preventing them from escaping. I'm a firm believer in capitalism.



Regarding the Palace, I'd go with the latter. The palace might have even been encased in ice for a long time, then exposed by a limited thaw.

TrollHammer

Good points.

I noticed one of your posts about how there is a lack of Troll history among the Scoll of Colors, and the nastybad editorthing's reply that I interpret as "take the reins in figuring it out yourselves". sounds like fun, and if I come across the bits and pieces I have Ill post them up. What are your thoughts? Did you unearth some Troll history over the years?

Trollbabe

I had quite a few posts about Troll history and culture, at the start of the Scroll of Colors. See "The Great Egg" for my "Trolls Versus Elves" thread.



I've had plenty of experience with Trolls, mainly as supervisors and managers.

TrollHammer

Forgot we had gotten a little ways on this on here...

Just jotting down a quick historical outline as I remember it...

Early trolls used as endentured servants and probably abused. Moderate birth rate. Possible birth control incited by ruleing Elves via forced nutering or euthinasia. Trolls begin to plot.

Trolls revolt, causing the palace to crash. Most or all early trolls leave the palace and burrow underground. Possible fragmentation, more strictly along lines of those who immediatly sought refuge underground and those that are more tolerant of exposure. These latter would travel far before burrowing or otherwise setting up settlements.

Period of mental and physical development. Life span increases. Culture becomes more refined, and social status becomes important, instigating a pecking order.

Guttlekraw becomes King.

Gremung, Maggoty are born.

Ice encroaches on the 'northern' kingdom. Trolls have also probably mines out the easier materials, and use rock shaper elves to forge a path 'south' into the forest lands that will become wolfrider 'territory'.

Greymung revolts, pushes Guttlekraw back north. Guttlekraw maintains one rock shaper (female, 'bag o bones', mekda?), Greymung succeeds in claiming Eukar (or whatever), osek
.

(unknown order events around this.time: Eukar and Osek possibly escape or fade into the background. Osek wanders into the desert and dies, entombing himself in the clif face.

Smelt sent to find more rock shapers.

Two Edge born.

Two edge's father is killed by an elvin witch, his mother.

Two edge begins to nurture the Trolls.)

Elves settle in the forest

Wolfrider tree shaper designs Dreamberry bushes.

Old maggoty begins to harvest dreamberries and make dreamberry wine.

Bearclaw kidnaps Old Maggoty, Trolls revealed to Elves.

Trade begins with the Elves

Cutter and Skywise form a raid and are captured. Cutter is held prisoner to atone for the crime of invasion and attempted theft.

Picknose strikes a deal with Skywise for the release of Cutter.

Trade resumes with the elves.

Cutter leads another raid with the full might of his tribe, are ejected into the Tunnle of Golden Light.

Two Edge tells Picknose about the signifigance of New.Moon.

Guttlekraw returns, sundering the seal. His warriors capture all of Greymung's folk exceot for Picknose, Oddbit, and Maggoty.

Cutter and skywise raid the forest Troll's domain once more. Two-Edge's key is revealed in the hilt of New Moon. Cutter and skywise escape after being captured.

(hazy on details)

Picknose joins with Wolfriders against the Frozen Mountain Trolls, epic battle ensues. Frozen mountain trolls are defeated.

Elves leave in Palace.

(more sketchy detail)

Picknose and Oddbit's first born is kidnapped by Rayak and taken into the future. Picknose sets up his new kingdom. After about 500 years the remaining Wolfriders sleep while Picknose keeps watch.

Palace reappears, Trinket returns.

Battle with Winnie's tidal pool ceature, Elves rely on Trolls to win battle.

Battle of the Citedel Mound, instigated by Two Edge.

Quiet period

Trolls, either via Palace or own space vehicle, set up colonies on the moons above Abode, as well as have other activity around the system.

Disappearance.

Trolls seen on board the Palace with an uneasy truce with the Elves.

Trollbabe

Here are some areas of everyday Troll life, culture and organization we may or may not have discussed already:



Troll time: Sleeping and waking cycles, day and night behavior, observation of months, astronomical movements and seasons, whether years and dates are recorded purely for hsitorical reasons. Trolls mark time for the purpose of settling debts and determining harvests, but do they keep time for other reasons?



Troll families: Nuclear and non-nuclear families, betrothal, whether Trolls have wedding contracts or ceremonies, marriage traditions. Family planning, adoption, childbirth and child rearing, lineage and ancestry, whether Trolls employ wetnurses. Education and apprenticeship. Responsibilities and priveleges of elders. Providing for aged and disabled Trolls.



Troll business: Use and significance of precious metals and stones. The bartering system. Legal contracts and enforcement. Inheritance. Taxation through wealth and/or service.



Troll occupations: Leadership, military, trades, professions, domestic positions, medicine, agriculture. Whether Trolls draise animals for any reason.

Trollbabe

Troll environment: Social structure of the Troll community, and its effect upon how chambers and tunnels are laid out (individual residences vs. Guttlekraw's "women's quarters.") Illumination. Ordinary defenses, as opposed to Two-Edge's elaborate inventions. Working, living, assembly and storage areas. Disposal of the dead. Underground and overground food production. Mining and smelting operations. Waterworks and waste disposal.

TrollHammer

Two notes: I havent even seen a disabled Troll from battle, much less desease or genetic issues. The elderly (Old maggoty, all the kings), seem to do well enough, it may be that "honor your elders" is enforced by necessity (wisdom and unique abilities that make them valuable), pecking order ( if you made it to be an elder, you had to do something right and are probably near the top.of the pile one way or other), and if all else fails, the stern had of the elder themselves.

On thr matter of time: guard duty and shift work. No Troll is going to work without either fair wages (pay per time or work piece), or a fair application or the whip. Therrforr, some sort of incremental time system would have to be set up in places like the King's chamber, even if the system has no corrilation to the world above ground.

Trollbabe

There would also be the matter of seniority. Trolls who had faithfully served longest, would have to be considered for promotion over newer hires or recruits. This would be necessary for morale and loyalty.



The Go-Back had some kind of reckoning for children's ages, even with their communal child-rearing practices. There was a story involving a rite of passage for warrior youths. Maybe Trolls have similar rituals, for a child who reaches a certain age. So they would have to know how old the child was, at least in years.



For some cooking and manufacturing operations, there has to be a way of keeping track of short increments of time.

TrollHammer

A note on seniority: just wanted to add that along with age comes noteriety: once a troll has been around a while, he becomes known by all as to if he is trustworth, accident prone, foolish, hard working, etc. Once a troll has made it to a certain level of renoun they would easily be branded for life, at least as far as the local folks are concerned.

One thing you never see: the little Trolls, or mups, if I recall correctly. It makes me think that they are either kept home until they are physically large eniugh to work. There is no referance to education in a formal sense, more like family trades handed down. Two Edge learned metalwork from his father. This would fit why we see few female trolls that are not a part of the kings harem, if they are nurturing the kids.... But that doesnt quite hold true either: for this type of gender roll type thing to be the explanation, there would be too much population growth. If Trolls grow to maturity like the elves, figure twenty years a child... Each family would have 50 children a millinium if they only had one at a time, and so on. We dont see that many trolls, nor hear of ongoing calamity taking up excess population. I still come back to the idea that there just arent as many females, like a 1:4 ratio or less (female:male). As you said, females in Troll society are fairly much able to do what they wish, and especially under Picky's rule march side by side with their male counterparts if they so desire, but we still done see many. The only ones I can remember are:

Drub
Trinket
Old Maggoty
Oddbit
The two females at the beginning of the series the first time we see Greymung (one of which I figure is Oddbit)

Whats your take on this?

Trollbabe

I agree that "mumps" are like baby pigeons: you don't see them because they don't leave the nest until they are almost grown. I did wonder about the ratio of males to females. Most Troll scenes involve battle, adventure, captivity, travel, trade, or other pursuits that are mostly male. Or, it may be like Gimli said about dwarves, in the LoTR movie - it's just hard to tell the males and females apart.

TrollHammer

To an extent that might be true, but it also seems that in all the specific scenes we see, it seems that the features of the Trolls we see are either distinctly male or female, following human standards of box or hourglass for bodies, long eyelashes and pouty lips for faces (females), and usually ( not always) more feminine jewelry and adornment among females and utility (tool belts, gloves, garments of trade) among males, of course on the other hand we mostly notice females who's trade is teasing males in power or wear the robes of the herbalist, so i guess to an extent all Trolls wear the clothes of their trade, instead of pure status or fashion. In this way of thinking, female miners might not be discernable from males from a distance. Would this also imply that Mumps would be fairly inadorned, perhaps simple loincloths or belts as some RL tribes clothe their children still? (south america and africa). Im trying to remember Two Edge as a youth, which seems to fit these lines. A youth would have no trade, therefore no adornment for that trade.

BTW, if you want to explore Desert Trolls and want to use some of my constructs, characters and whatnot, have at it. I can give you my outlines to an extent and the limited number of rules I allowed myself. The two tribes need way more development that what I have desire to write about at the moment. They have plenty of room for 'play' and fit the canon storyline fairly well, I think.

Trollbabe

That would be interesting. I have always wondered how desert Trolls would tunnel under sand. But in a rocky environment, Trolls would survive better than anyone who relies upon surface water.



How do Troll children dress? Years ago, I realized that it was really not necessary for many of the children in Elfquest to wear clothes. Before modern textile production, it was common for children in different cultures and climates to go naked. In temperate climates, children dress as you describe. But for the sake of taste and individual characterization, Elfquest children wear more clothing than necessary.



Since the temperature underground is steady, and there is no precipitation, Troll children would not need to wear as much as Elves. Trinket's dress looks like a luxury item befitting a Troll princess, as opposed to a common child's garments. Girls, at least, might wear earrings.

TrollHammer

Mmm hmm. Additionally, I always figured Trinket was atypical, having such parents to spoil her. Supposedly old maggoty was in the same position (status) as Oddbit years ago, but I just dont see her as being AS shallow, AS selfish, or putting AS much emphasis on charms and adornment as Oddbit. Oddbit's character seems to never grow out of this phase, and if tgis was typucal behavior for Troll Females, it seems that Old Maggoty would wear something other than a demurr and subdued robe. Or else thee is a story there and some sort of event in her padt made her want to blend into the backgroubd (she does seem to prod Oddbit to be even more self centered and materialistic)

Hmm. This is just off the top of my head, not thought through. I know Old maggoty is Oddbit's mentor, but I cant remember if she is her birth mom. Regardless, what if the preening she urges on Oddbit is more of an overconpensation for a past failure, or conversely an attempt at some sort of revenge on a societal wrong done to her? She is extremely smart, knowing far more about herbs and whatnot than any other troll, elf, or human we see witness of, and she considers herself pretty on occasion, what if a past lover did not value her for her mind at all, and only wanted her body, perhaps discarding her when she 'had too many ideas' or something? Perhaps a repeated abuse involving body over mind? Im not a girl to really understand these things, but there have been many stories based on this theme.

Ill PM you in a moment on Oregrinder's horde. Chores call.

Trollbabe

It is possible that Oddbit calls Maggoty her grandmother as a term of endearment. It could be like the Japanese custom of calling one's elders "uncle" and "aunt." Or they could be related, but there never seems to be any clear description of their connection. Maggoty mentions her eldest son in passing, but we don't get much more family background on her.



One of my elderly aunts liked to brush my hair. It was long after her death that Sis revealed the family had once operated a beauty parlor. This makes me think that Oddbit' beauty is maintained in part by Maggoty. Hair brushing might also be the cynical matron's guarded way of showing affection in public.



Maggoty's skills might include those of the medieval barber, the Chinese herbalist and the Avon lady: her skills are applied to both beauty and health. She probably makes hair and skin potions, perfumes, all kinds of soaps, a variety of baby and child care products, even love potions.



You're no into chic lit? I bet you don't paint your nails either.

TrollHammer

I might have gotten a little overspray on a ten penny nail before, and I know I saw some finishing nails gussied up in red and white in the cribbage board at work....


It would be an interesting tale about Old maggoty learning her skills.

Wow, Im distractible tonight. I cant think of anything new. I need to look at a computer screen and add what we have posted into the timeline, unless you want to do it.

Trollbabe

My guess is that old Maggoty learned her skills the same way that Drub learned leadership: by observation, then by experimentation. Maggoty would have had better luck finding a mentor, since it was acceptible for Troll girls to be herbalists.

TrollHammer

Are there other herbalists? I agree that this is true, Im just wondering why....

I did think of something while writing: since the coneheads had visited other planets it would seem that the prototrolls ought to understand that they were in some sort of transport vehicle, or else the were locked in cages before landing (not literal cages, but perhaps sealed away from the exits. It would be simple, as it requires either communion with the palace or rock shaping ability, which Trolls did not have that we know of. Still, if that was the case it would add to the whole revolution reasoning.

Paet of me also likes the idea that there were either casts among the proto trolls, or seperate clans, than therr were only a select few that felt strongly enough about their loving conditions and had motivation enough to do anytgong about it, with others either not caring or feeling the opposite. Id imagine the 'pets' living on the main level that were doted on would feel quite comfortable in their position, bit those that did all ther serving (perhaps not deemed as pretty?) would feel the worst. Im sure with slavery in the real world, there was quite a difference in opinion between the field workers, the house servants, and various other 'trades'. The so called whipping boy and the crew that delt with trash and waste would have worse opinions than those thst were able to stay in the master's house all year. All of them would hate it, but some would be less motivated to risk their lives to for a.chance to go it their own. In the case of RL slavery, and even in the case of the story, there was nothing for the slaves to go to if they overthrew their masters. In the south, an escapee couldnt do much more than to run out into the woods and try to hunt to survive, competing with the native americans, hiding for the rest of their lives, less than a criminal and killed on sight.

The Trolls would have even less ability to go do anything other than be servants. There was nowhere they could go, and other than what mechanations they may or may not have developed there was nothing they could do with the Palace if they overthrew the Elves. It would seem that they understood to some degree that they were landing (shell transformed into a palace), but perhaps disnt know the difference between setting on a planet and the lead up. Hmm...

The cone heads are able morph themselves to adapt to the various climates and environments of different worlds, but the Trolls cannot, implying they had to stay abord when they landed, but the coneheads did do SOME manipulation to the prototrolls, do yoi think they they would adapt them to each planet?

TrollHammer

Well, among all this, I'm adapting what we have in to a game beta to try gameplay mechanics for an Elf Quest game (same as Troll Quest, but Elves would be able to play... and so would humans, and Preservers.



It would be a developing thing, trying out game engines, art styles, perspecives, and whatnot that is probably not too interesting (if it is and you want to help out a lot, let me know!



Anyway, I'm trying t make sure I have all the basic areas of the underground realm. help me out if you think of something else:



Natural areas:

Lava tubes

caverns

underground rivers, pools

Ore

Gems

precious metals

roots

dirt

stone

broken rock



Troll-made artifacts:

tunnels

hollows (dwellings, store rooms, etc)

underground gardens

mines

doors

forges

wells

water/waste managment

near surface temporary access (old maggoty's path to pick Dreamberries)

Shaper-formed tunnels



Other Troll areas of note:

Throne and throneroom

specific tunnels (to the surface, to the mines, to the Tunnel of Golden Light, to the Frozen Mountains, etc)

King's quarters

Oddbit's quarters (or whatever you want to use for a name)





Areas of known Troll activity:

Blue Mountain (via Two-Edge, Smelt, and others)

Father Tree Holt Forest (Greymung's kingdom)

Frozen Mountains (Guttlekraw's kingdom)

Citedel Mount (junland, via Two Edge)

Area around Citedel Mount, new wolfrider holt area, via Picknose's Trolls

coastal area near Winnie's sea beast, Picknose's Trolls





Proposed additional (fanfic) areas:

Desert Troll caves

Sea Troll caves (more coastal like or islander, not deep sea)

Jungle trolls?

Plains Trolls?

old prototroll caves and ruins.





Food (flora and fauna of the underground domensce):

Mushrooms (fungi)

Roots

Cave Slugs

Nematodes

burrowing insects

burrowing creatures (especially during winter while hybernating)

Mineral cakes

Moss

Silkworms



(went on a wiki walk for a moment looking up other underground creatures. didn't find many plants. now I'm out of time, Later.)

Trollbabe

Regarding food, Trolls can develop aquaculture as a food source. Fish can live in total darkeness, although they lose sight and coloring.



Desert Trolls would develop elaborate cliff dwellings, similar to those in Jordan and the Southwest USA.

TrollHammer

That follows. One of the things I read.on my wiki walk was abiut fish and crustatians dwelling underground in the outback.

Well, I am running preliminary checks.on Netgore. What Id like are any layouts, maps, key features of Greymung's Kingdom, names of specific characters, hazards (other than cave ins), interactible creatures (canon or non canon inferred) (perhaps usable as pets). Anything that anyone can think of that you would like to see in the troll tunnels.

Looks like netgore allows the use of figures skeletons for animation, meaning that the artwork will be emensly easier, and unless someone has the desire to do some artwork (gems, tunnel walls, characters, whatever) , I have someone locak that may do some of the drawing for it.

Trollbabe

Someone sent me a link to this article

http://www.cracked.com/article_19622_5-real-places-plucked-straight-out-fairy-tales.html

that includes two caverns. They would fit well into a Troll environment.

TrollHammer

Ill have to look that up when I get to a computer.

Which of the following would you rather have in a story/game (interactive story?):
Conflict between Troll Clans
A mysterious quest(s) bringing the Troll's past, present, and future together.
Daily life of gathering, crafting, working, playing, etc.
A series of "tricks" to play on humans and elves, and perhaps conflict or coexistance with them.
Trade with humans or elves (or other Troll cultures).
Tracking down and/or solving mysteries set up by Two Edge.
(other)

Dont have to run with just one, could do all of the above if you wish.

TrollHammer

Speaking of which, what other games did Two Edge play with the trolls? Theres the riddle of New Moon, the battle he set up between elf and troll, the battle he set up between elf/troll and humans, and supposedly several trinkets are left in the caves for the trolls to find and reverse engineer, though other than New Moon I dont recall any specific examples.

Hiw much influence did he have over the "modern" metalsmiths?

Is it possible that the metalsmithing his father performed was more "iron age", common "metal" forging, and perhaps Two Edge showed them the way to produce "brightmetal", or alloy steel?

There is actually a referance to "brightmetal" in the Eragon series, in which a (high nickle content) meteor was dug up, smelted into steel, and a high quality sword fashioned from it, much better than the simple carbon steel traditionally used. Nickle steel would fit the bill for "brightmetal", as it has a far more whiter tone when it is shined up than normal steel, and is far shiner. Ill have to post examples sometime.

Trollbabe

Quote:
Which of the following would you rather have in a story/game (interactive story?):

Conflict between Troll Clans

A mysterious quest(s) bringing the Troll's past, present, and future together.

Daily life of gathering, crafting, working, playing, etc.

A series of "tricks" to play on humans and elves, and perhaps conflict or coexistance with them.

Trade with humans or elves (or other Troll cultures).

Tracking down and/or solving mysteries set up by Two Edge.

(other)




The first three appeal to me personally. I'm not sure how the Trolls would work out trading with humans. Up until Two-Edge appears to the humans, the Trolls seem to keep themselves unseen by the "five-fingers."

Trollbabe

Quote:
Is it possible that the metalsmithing his father performed was more "iron age", common "metal" forging, and perhaps Two Edge showed them the way to produce "brightmetal", or alloy steel?




I think that is a good possibility. BTW I'm still wondering what the northern Trolls did with all of the plating leftover from the Palace Public Works Project. Maybe they got tired of squatting in the snow, and rolled them into pipes for indoor plumbing?

TrollHammer

SLEDS!

TrollHammer

Actually, I could see multiple uses for such things in AU situations: sell them to humans and elves for riot shields, build houses, cold food storage (keeps the preditors out, keeps the freshness in!), a bridge for the go-backs... But none of these thongs would be of any use or benifit to the real frozen mountain trolls (even if they did turn the Frozen Mountains into a ski resort, they would have to reforge them into snow boards).

More likely they scrapped the lot of them and if they origionally went to the trouble of making them quality brightmetal, took a break from smelting and just recycled them over time into whatever they need.

What is more of a question to me is what they started doing with their time. They had sort of a three way "battle" of sorts going on, taking much focus and effort. They knew what they had to do, what their purpose was:
A) keep the stinking elves out of the palace (oops)
B) war with the go-backs
C) build shield wall (duhoh)
D) revenge on Forest Trolls (well, sort of accomplished, sort of got away...)

We see battle resume with the go-backs, but instead of wiping them out its back to more of a cold war state. They may not have slaves any longer, but they also dont have to smelt ore or build the shiled wall either, life of luxury! Plus they saw what armor can do for them after Two Edge's 'lesson', so they could have made armor with the shield wall parts (far more metal than that around.) After having thwir collective butts handed to them, their shield destroyed, and not much left of the forest trolls to mess with, what purpose did they bring to themselves? i cant see them just setting back, taking an extended vaca, and sitting around getting soft, going back to looking for gems and gold.

TrollHammer

As it wouldn't pertain to the Elves, and they wouldn't understand anyway...



It seems to me that there would be all sorts of interesting underground features and sights underground as tunnels are dug over the years.



Winnie had Brace to handle a fault in a wall. Trolls would be able to find such faults as well, and would have their own way of dealing with them, such as metal bracing around the site, pillars to help support the area, or even workaround tunnels to vacate the area, packing it full of rock and marking it with their own way of saying "off limits to those worth their nose"



There might be remembered features, such as a particular type of boulder that shatters or collapses if cut/drilled/mined/messed with. Superstition or no, these rocks would be avoided after the first one or two caused some deaths, and so you might have several levels of ring-shaped tunnels surrounding such rocks, if they are large enough.



Relatively speaking, wood would not last long enough for trolls to use as bracing in any but the most temporary of mine tunnels. Most wood would be counted on to last 25-100 years at most without replacing, whereas many tunnels are in use long after the tooling marks have been obscured by mineral deposites (requiring thousands of years). Stone or metal bracing would more likely be used. We see this in the beginning of Fire and Flight.



Oil lamps would require much work to keep lit full time. While there might be lamplighter trolls at work, it seems that since a "moderate use" tunnel might not see use more than once every few weeks to years, and would not be kept lit. The tunnels we see lit at every support brace would have to be extremely busy to have so much oil (or other combustable) in use, much like the courtyard of a castle, or downtown in a city.



Personal torches would be a luxury, as they would also require consumable combustables, which should be scarce underground. This is unless....



Generally, we don't see much evidence of coal or petroleum in use by the Humans of abode at an point in history. It would make sense that either there just isn't enough techtonic activity to support such things, or the Trolls sucked these resources dry ten thousand years before it would have been discovered by the Humans. Still, in order to deplete these resources it seems that they would have to have forced air circulation to be able to breath and burn all that at the rate required to deplete them. I'm thinking the former, that there aren't much of these resources around, since most of the Troll caverns and tunnels don't seem to be affected by groundquakes all that much. As their lives are so long, it seems that some of them would notice the longer tunnels getting cracked, moving, sealed off, or whatever over time, but the super long rockshaper tunnel joining the forest and frozen mountains didn't seem to suffer from this.



Anyway, the low air movement would also imply they wouldn't burn much for light if it wasn't absolutely necessary, as it would make it hard to breath. Yes, there would have to be many vents throughout the kingdom, but even these would have to remain naturally cirulating and indetectible by surface folk, therefore small and few.



This is, of course, unless they have found a cheap mineral they can use to scrub CO2 from the air, or they don't need much air to breathe anyway.



the forge fires seem to be held in a flumelike cavern, with a spiral staircase around it. It could be that this flume opens into a remote volcanic structure and uses the rising heat to pull fresh air into the vents elsewhere. This would take care of smoke from the forges, unplesant odors, and create a little forced air circulation.

Trollbabe

Being deprived of light much of the time, Trolls would also do as the blind do. They would rely upon their other senses, attuning them to the point that sight was secondary. Tunnels would even be marked with object and carved symbols that function like the Braille signs in public buildings.

In an era when literacy was uncommon, barbers, physicians and pawnbrokers used symbols to advertise their trade. Trolls could use symbols in the same way. Durable objects like a deer's scapular bone, three ceramic knobs, or a wooden triangle could mean "here are first aid supplies" or "Goldring's home" or "caution, floor is slippery." Sight is notnecessary to identify these symbols

TrollHammer

I hadnt got it that well thought out, but I was thinking along the same lines: indicators that would mean nothing to the Elves, therefore never discussed in the books. Tunnels would have legends that would indicate where the tunnel lead, perhaps what hazards lay ahead, and perhaps a "you are here" in the middle of intersections.

As was mentioned by (flam?) his feet were sensitive to imperfections in the floor, allowing him to notice traps that were not normally noticed by the other Trolls. Why couldnt the Troll's braille be placed on the floor, as subtile patterns felt underfoot? they would have to be refreshed every so often, due to wear, but that would be a small matter for the Trolls. I was going to say signage wluld be needed in earthen tunnels, but plaquards could be inlahed in the floor.

TrollHammer

Quick dump of a map I did:

http://www.elfquest.com/social/file/pic/photo/2012/03/TrollHammer-troll-caves.jpg



looks like it is cut off the screen. Oh well. Download it, make adds and changes (or make a whoel new map) and repost it here in this group. This map IS secret, as it may be used as a template for the video game.

Things not included: store rooms, underground gardens, root gathering (and all the forest side stuff), Tunnel of Golden Light, dwellings, and various other stuff I forgot.

Keep in mind that some of these areas and mines are multi level, forming levels of shafts, and not everything has to be on the same level.

Ill provide a story of reasoning (and I just realized it is mirrored. I put the forest on the wrong side, so I swapped north and south, which put the entry from the Frozen Mountains on the wrong side. This will have to be fixed one way or the other.

TrollHammer

Ok. Ill have to reload the image at some point. Got too much going on right now.

Fixed:
Tunnel to forest is now the tunnel that leads to the Tunnel of Golden Light.
Labeled the sealed shaper tunnel as "to frozen mountians"
Labeled the new forges and added a couple.


added:
Store rooms
tunnel that leads to forest tunnels (now northern Hard Pan area). Cuts through/under the Gold Mines. Since this would have been important before the new throne room (in large cavern), it should be a redirect from the old small cavern.

TrollHammer

Here is the corrected version, including some of the Gypsy settlements discussed earlier.



Story is coming, Really!



TrollHammer

The story of the map...



Scads of years ago, the Trolls moved away from the Frozen Mountains, south, to this area. They used a Rock Shaper Elf to tunnel (comes in from left of map).



They finally arrive in a small cavern or hollow suitable to their preferances: space, safety, metal ore all around, and warmer than the Frozen Mountains.



They start mining the Old Ore, at first fairly crudely. They didn't have a huge population, and didn't need all that much space. They tunnel out in several directions as they initially back track down the way they came for mining.



South, they find the edge of the ore field, and eventually continue on to find coal.



North, they tunnel a fairly great distance until they reach granite. It is deemed that the ore field will last a fairly long time. They start standard mine runners.



An unsanctioned tunnel runs off at an angle, only to meet up with the regular mine runners. The ameture miners are punished and the odd shaft used as a short cut for that mine runner, then left forgotten.



The second runner north of the first runner strikes gold before the ore field runs out. The slanted shaft is put back into use, and the first runner sealed off to keep the mine systems seperated.



Eventually, the population grows to the point that the small cavern no longer supports the community.



Tunnels are dug in several directions, some, such as the northern tunnel into the forest, were simply to allow more room to live, while other exploritory shafts were punched through the mineral layer to search for more caverns, more resources, and whatever else that could be found.



The mineral shaft evenually reaches granite suitable for use as a building material. Granite mining begins south of the old small cavern.



Mining continues with short runners as easy labor dictated shorter distances. A geode pocket is discovered to be full of precious gems.



The pocket is mined out, most of the gems are found at the ends of the pocket and these ends are enlarged. After the pocket is stripped out, prospectors attempt to strike out in likely directions for more pockets.



One of these runners punches through to what would become the new home for these Trolls. A large cavern, with a lot larger amount of gems, deep within solid stone. After the mining frenzy settled down, the community begins to build a new settlement.



Guttlekraw orders a great hall to be constructed in the center of the southern face of the cavern. He allows those he deems to be of high enough status to create homes for themselves along the norther cavern wall, and a few shops to be set up along the southern face. The rest of the population is either deemed to be too busy mining for him to need homes, or forced to live under the forests in the dirt.



Maggoty and Greymung lead a revolt of these "Forest Trolls" through the new forge rooms and flush Guttlekraw and his ilk to flee back to the frozen Mountains.



Greymung assumes lordship over the Forest Trolls, uses a Rock Shaper to seal the tunnel back to the Frozen Mountains, and orders the completion of the royal hall.



Somewhere around this time, the Old Ore Mines begin to be played out, as well as the old coal field. Near one end of the gold mines, more ore is found, and higher density mining begins cross-ways to the gold mines, which are nearly played out by this point. Exploritory shafts are dug to determine the size of the new ore field.



Greymung uses the rock shaper to form new, better tunnels through the wet mineral veins to allow better access for (his) workers to manouver materials and ore from the mines to the forge rooms. He also discovers a new coal bed, however it is determined that it is a small deposit and abandoned, along with the exporitory tunnel leading to the south.



(Deviating from the regular story to add in Lodestone, Two-Edge later connects this tunnel up with his deathtrap: the Tunnel of Golden Light.)



Oddbit replaces Maggoty as King's Favorite, and Old Maggoty is given her own chambers near the vein of broken rock. This affords her privacy to brew her concoctions and uses the strata of broken rock to vent fumes.



At some point, (perhaps Oddbit's origion?), wandering Gypsy Trolls break through into the old mines. They are thought to be Frozen Mountain Trolls at first, but are later welcomed into the communtity and those that wished to incorperated into the Forest Troll community.



A second Gypsy camp followed an old wandering tunnel and has reached into the new ore field, but no contact has been made.



Later, the Trolls are discovered by Bearclaw, and we can figure from there.



ALTERNATE STORY:



Oddbit and Maggoty were two of the Gypsy settlement that were incorperated into the Forest Trolls.

TrollHammer

I'm thinking that perhaps the underground gardens might have to be near to the forest, where there's dirt to grow in? There would be a whole seperate map of forest tunnels, but they would mostly be random, following roots near the surface and following water and nutriants deeper, avoiding deeper tree roots.



Perhaps Trolls, avoiding magic when possible, might shy away from the Father Tree (which seems to have Wolfrider Collective Magic attached to it)?



Narrower tunnels might be dug by Old Maggoty, chasing Dreamberries, perhaps even planting some seeds here and there so she would know where new bushes would be?



Mushrooms would need to be near moisture, minerals, and perhaps decaying organic material. The material could be hauled in for maintained gardens.

Trollbabe

Husbnd is recovering from heart surgery and we both have colds. Gak. Hope to be better soon.

I was wonderig if the water is a river. Do they have some kind of reservoir?

TrollHammer

Ooch, sorry you're having such a time of it. Hope its all going well and he is recovering well.

Actually, there needs to be some underground water "rivers" as they are common in nature. They might also determine how an underground community lays out more strongly than they do on the surface, as cooking and drinking water would be upstream, while blacksmithing would be downstream.

Also, there would be different water at different levels, as well as direction for it so it would keep things from flooding.

I figured that the mineral vien would be porus and have a significant water flow, perhaps to the extend of being a hard water aquafer, but there should be more "clean" and "flowing" water elsewhere.

The preferred method of crossing the mineral region is a shaper tunnel, as it could be made sealed away from the water and stay dry. The early tunnels might be prospectors that didnt rate to use shapers, therefore cut stone would be needed, and over time minerals would mostly seal the cracks. They would be in disuse and almost forgotten as there is little need to go into the mined out areas and old settlement. The frozen trolls would remember it very well and use it in an ambush.

If things get less crazy and you feel like having some fun, if you want to print out the map, make changes (or do it in a drawing program or whatever youbwant) in some color other than black, add rivers and whatnot, feel free.

Also, the forest tunnels need explored and drawn, and a few two-edgy labrinths might show up drawing the tunnel of golden light course.

Im thinking of changing the scale from what I thought before. Netgore does better, I gather, with lots of "little" maps with few people in them (ten or less). As such, instead of having a largish map with tiny tunnels, Im thinking art and feel would be served better with wide tunnels in segments, so that each mine shaft lateral might be two or three maps long end to end, making it unlikely that a large number of players will be in the same section of tunnel.

This might also make it easier to build the system of tunnels and make the world large enough to play in effectively. it would actually be lesswork as one "abandoned" tunnel section and one "active" or "minable" section could be made up as templates, and then copied a few dozen times, add some random content to each section to make it unique, link them and its done, instead if drawing a map with several branches of unique tunnel.

Battery is dieing. Hope you have a good night!